I am just going to assume that the admin that kicked me was stress prior to me entering the chat. The thing is--that is not something you take onto being justified admining.
Unfortunately--like most issues in IRC, the memories are short of the events... but the impressions last.
Apparently fenris impression of me is that I am an impeccable. I have talked to him on Freenode--fairly often before this. I can swear I have seen him in places other than #fedora. Though--there is a small chances that this may have been an off shoot of another incident on the same server.
If there is one thing I know how to do it is get under people's skin.
Now, lets give a background of my situation.
I bought this scanner a month ago. I have been having issues getting it working. As you can see in the log, I appear to be able to point to how to find out where to find the drivers--and what version it first appeared in.
Also, I have been in enough spots on FreeNode for long enough that, your best assumption is that my first attempt was to RTFM. Possibly look on Google.
Now, into the log:
--- Log opened Wed May 26 19:29:21 2010
19:29 -!- KatrinaTheLamia [~root13@li130-87.members.linode.com] has joined #fedora
19:29 -!- Irssi: #fedora: Total of 430 nicks [2 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 428 normal]
19:29 -!- Irssi: Join to #fedora was synced in 1 secs
19:29 < KatrinaTheLamia> uh--quick question what package contains the kernel modules that allow sane to talk to my scanner?
19:29 -!- dhaval [~dhaval@nat-cataldo.sssup.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
19:30 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, kernel modules? you mean usb?
19:30 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: something like that.
19:30 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, or do you mean sane modules found in sane-backends?
19:30 < KatrinaTheLamia> I was looking through /lib
19:30 < KatrinaTheLamia> uh... my issues stems from modprobe having no clue what I am talking about.
19:30 * Anpan starts to despair
19:31 < KatrinaTheLamia> As the kernel modules I need are well--not there.
Okay--you know what? I can see fenris02's newbie alarms going off on this... if we were still back in the days of Linux 0.97 and 2.0 and 2.2.
As you know what? Back then, that was very common. Today, we are in the modern day of the 2.6 kernel. Typically with only a few throwbacks to the 2.4 kernel. Which has a few howtos suggest a single line of `modprobe scanner` typically.
Trust me--that does show up in the USB trouble shoot sections of a few SANE howtos.
Perhaps look at:
I mean, this was beyond the various man pages and docs on my system... which was my first look.
Typically following
$ man xsane
$ man scan-image
$ man sane-find-scanner
I even decided that perhaps maybe my debug level was not high enough so the following ENV variables were set:
SANE_DEBUG_EPSON2=4
ANE_DEBUG_SANEI_USB=4
So--my debug levels were ridiculously high enough that if SANE had a slight case of the sniffles, it would wake the dead. Causing the brain hungry undead to roam the earth gnawing on the flesh of humans.
I noticed a pattern in my errors:
[sanei_usb] sanei_usb_open: can't find device `/dev/usbscanner9' in list
[sanei_usb] sanei_usb_open: can't find device `/dev/usbscanner10' in list
[sanei_usb] sanei_usb_open: can't find device `/dev/usbscanner11' in list
Okay... let us go under my basic understanding of how linux works. Perhaps, maybe my understanding of Linux is at fault here.
Linux is typically a name for a group of software that work in tandem with together to produce useful results. Remove on element, and it destroys the balance.
Essentially you have the kernel--the center of any large computer program. Typically Operating Systems will have a kernel--but there are plenty of largely created programs that require a lot of work to them that will typically have one centre called the kernel. Various large GUI projects will have a kernel. Items that deal with issues with timing will often have a kernel.
The kernel is probably better spelled as "Colonel". (I may have to refer to a kernel as the naming of "RearAdmiral").
Most "applications" within the framework containing the kernel generally require the kernel to tell them where to go. They build onto the kernel, and may talk between a few of themselves for functionality.
Then there are other elements that are build on layers on that.
In this case.
You have the hardware.
You have the linux kernel
You have init.d (process 0).
You have various applications for super user land.
Then you have user land.
SANE typically is meant to exist in user land. Though, with a few elements in super user land.
Those /dev/ entries? Typically indicate something going on around the linux kernel level.
The /dev file system is something that is done on various UNIX and UNIX workalike systems. It does not exist. Typically, it indicates a list of devices that the kernel currently has an idea of how to talk to.
These files in this file system do not exist on your hard drive--except for their inode values.
An Inode typically an entry, to my understanding that tells a long about what the "file" is or does and is located for accounting purposes--I admit shakiness on my understanding of this. I do know that if you end up running out of inodes before you run out of space, the device will act as though you have no space on it--though... this never happens in modern systems. Not certain if it is because we have several TiB hard drives on the market--or if advances in partition formats, such as ntfs, jfs, xfs, rieserfs and ext9001, have made it so that running out of inodes is insanely hard to do. It probably is both.
So, these files that it was trying to find in /dev, typically are representations of what the kernel is able to understand and do.
The thing is--these tutorials generally mention that udev should do it automatically (you at user land do not need to worry your pretty little head off... udev will protect you!). They rarely point to locations that may fix or correct udev entries should they fail.
A few of the ones I listed, will point to `modprobe` as a solution for both 2.4 and 2.6. Mind you, 2.4 does have a lot more to load--typically 2.6 only has scanner or usbscanner. This is mostly to let the system know that hey "this is how you talk to scanners"
And go through the tutorials--not all of them suggest this solution. Some say it should just work--though I admit that trying the modprobe may have been Cargo Cult Code--but the last time I have had a working scanner was on 2.4... and that means, I had to run those two or three modprobe commands before I could use sane.
I mean--okay... I could see it as a newbie type question if the documents supported looking through the kernel modules for the scanner.
Which I kind of state--there was nothing, indicating anything in there for any usb talking to a scanner. There was a few generic "talk to devices"--which generally were supported by other items such as CUPS.
I must admit that it is nice that these have generic talk to devices while there is a large amount of external network hardware stuff my modules list and a few external hard drive type stuff.
Internal, go crazy--if you got something varying from SATA, IDE, SCSI or Ribbon based connections.
However, that other external stuff? Mayhaps apply the same policy. Personally, I want to see some form of kernel module that just sends wireless hardware handling to an software point. This however, would allow for various Wifi type conventions to be completely broken at a coder's whim.
My understanding of it, was that even after the device was plugged in it did not see it here.
19:31 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, because you dont use modprobe for scanners typically ...
19:31 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: yes, I know
19:31 -!- jeansch [~jeansch@216.252.92.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
19:31 < Anpan> if things stay like this, i have to go back to windows. And thats what i totally want to avoid.
19:31 -!- StrikerTTD [~Striker@184.76.215.27] has joined #fedora
19:31 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: however pretty much ever SANE howto has a setp that uses modprobe in it.
19:32 < KatrinaTheLamia> for 2.4, 2.5 and 2.6 kernels at least.
I was about to point out that this was not a typical situation, as we have various /dev/ entries not showing up.
19:32 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, ok, you do whatever you feel is best. when you want it working let me know
Translation from Passive Aggressive to English. I do not know the answer--however I am going to make it well known that what you are doing is incorrect. I refuse to be helpful--and will mostly wait here while you struggle and just answer with I told you so.
Please, fenris02, we have seen each other in the channel a few times. Typically I have some idea on what I am doing--my issue is that it is not the Fedora way. Which does have some good traits. Heck some wonderful traits. However, you guys suck at getting it out there.
I mean, okay, you DO have a wiki for setting up various items. The issue is, that it obvious has a very bad search engine ranking, as well--I do not think I have ever seen it appear in Google. I mean, I am more likely to see forums dealing with porting my program to a legacy version of Amiga OS and their issues, before I see the fedora help site in google.
It does not show up as standard bookmark in the browsers I run (which I have never removed the fedora bookmarks). While I do not place many bookmarks--I have issues remembering the domain name.
It only pisses me off that it SHOULD be something easy to remember--however in my mind... it is just one step outside of helpful.
Now, the Fedora Forums do show up--I do not really bother with forums for help.
You get three typical answers:
Answer A:
Somebody whining about an issue--and people agreeing they cannot get it to work either. These get irritating to see when you have solved it--but for some reason are unable to post on your solution.
Answer B:
Somebody claims to have solved it. People confirm it. Wait a few months--and they disappear. New people come it, talking about how the solution gave does not work. Even faithfully repeating every reported conditions.
Answer C:
A problem is posted. Then they say they solved it--without really pointing out what happened. I mean, even an "I dunno--magic shoe pixies?" would be a good answer here. Answer C sucks for me--because all it leaves me wondering is, "okay--that is nice... why does it not work for me"
Further more, the Fedora help wiki is surprisingly under documented. There is a large amount of sections that are in a state of fill in later.
Which is nice--I understand people are busy, and there is a lot to talk about. This kind of negates it as "a place to go for help" though.
Okay... so...
We have fenrir02 here... obviously not wanting to help.
And guess what? That passive aggressive comment is what sparked the fire.
He showed no indication of helping--flat off from the start, he branded me as a newbie somehow following philosophies from Kernel version 2.1 era (which do not even appear in many tutorials either these days).
I mean, was I really that stupid, the modern equivalent was "I clicked the GUI, it did not work."
I can live with fenrir02 going senile though.
19:32 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: I want it working now
19:32 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: okay... how do I do this?
19:32 -!- d33p_th0ught [~fizzy@unaffiliated/fizzy] has joined #fedora
19:32 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, step 1) stop playing around with modprobe.
19:32 -!- cpuobsessed [~tim@adsl-074-183-121-238.sip.bgk.bellsouth.net] has joined #fedora
19:32 < KatrinaTheLamia> As just about ever document I could find on google fail on the step that requires modprobe to be used.
19:32 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, what scanner do you have?
19:32 -!- jerry [~jerry@67-197-6-67.rh1.dyn.cm.comporium.net] has joined #fedora
19:32 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: one that is in the epson2 sane-backend
19:33 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, how many entries do you have in dll.conf ?
19:33 < KatrinaTheLamia> I have removed everything expect for epson2 and net
19:33 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, does "lsusb" show your scanner?
19:33 -!- daMaestro [~jon@fedora/damaestro] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
19:34 < cpuobsessed> whoa! photorec is AWESOME!
19:34 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: the issue stems from the fact that no where in /dev is /dev/usbscanner\d+ or /dev/usb/scanner\d+
19:34 < KatrinaTheLamia> I have put sane-find-scanner's debug level up to four on several spots... it has no idea how to talk to any form of scanner hardware
19:34 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, does "lsusb" show your scanner?
Okay, fenris02... I pointed out what I saw the issue here. Please stop going into "is it plugged in mode".
I mean--it is generally very irritated that I am frustrated that this scanner has not been working for about a month, and your general going into your old drills, when I have pointed out my situation was that I have ran various items here--and guess what? The error is that I do not have the devices to allow programs to interact with the scanner.
I have given you a general summary of the situation here. Yet you go into drill mode.
Thank you for regarding me as a person--and not just another fucker that comes in for support.
By the way, my view is that there are two kinds of humans: people and fuckers. It was obvious that I was in the fucker category here.
It may have been a long day--and fenris02 may have been under stress.. but well...
19:34 -!- amabo [~matsa@cpe-66-27-107-106.san.res.rr.com] has joined #fedora
19:35 < amabo> how might i go about installing gnome 3 with fedora 13?
19:35 < fenris02> amabo, su -c "yum install @gnome-desktop"
19:35 < amabo> fenris02: thanks!
19:35 < Anpan> So nobody can/wants to help me anymore?
19:36 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: there is an Epson entry
19:36 < fenris02> Anpan, your driver was not found in kmod-staging? you sure?
19:36 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: but it has only saw the printer part of it
19:36 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, ok, what is that line?
19:36 < Anpan> fenris02: well, the networkmanager doesn't show any signs of wlan being available
19:36 < KatrinaTheLamia> Bus 001 Device 014: ID 04b8:0854 Seiko Epson Corp.
19:37 < fenris02> Anpan, did you install kmod-staging successfully?
19:37 < Anpan> fenris02: yum didn't return any errors, at least.
19:37 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, what is the full model name of teh device?
19:38 < KatrinaTheLamia> Epson Workforce 310
19:38 -!- Vorbote [~vorbote@unaffiliated/vorbote] has joined #fedora
19:38 -!- tmclaugh [~tom@c-65-96-209-125.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
19:39 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: my scanner appears to have been in the Epson2 backend since about version 1.0.12
19:39 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, are you sure? it does not show up on the list ...
19:40 -!- cpg is now known as cpg|away
Right--you know the situation better than me... but uh... did you know about? They suck at updating this list.
19:40 -!- cpg is now known as cpg|away
19:40 < KatrinaTheLamia> I will grab you the vender id and stuff... look for it that way
19:40 < cpuobsessed> amabo: gnome 3 isn't out yet, you can install what they are calling a preview: gnome-shell
19:40 < KatrinaTheLamia> those lists are horribly unmaintained it seems
19:40 < amabo> cpuobsessed: do i have to recompile a kernal or anything like that?
19:40 < fenris02> you already provided the vendor id above.
Yeah--I know.. but... that output was only vaguely verbose. I mean, generally I am not for tool reports containing what appears to be two Ambigiously labelled number BUS and ID, followed by two seeming arbitrary numbers.
I mean, yes, it is obvious now--but it generally gets annoying when people put output on a console or into a long that is largely a lot of meaningless numbers and vague terms.
Yes, that is wonderful for internal stuffs. Go crazy with internals.
If the program is spitting out diagnostic info... well... lets compare with `ifconfig wlan0`
wlan0 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:XX:XX:XX:XX:XX
inet addr:10.0.5.26 Bcast:10.0.5.255 Mask:255.255.255.0
inet6 addr: fe80::224:2cff:fe98:97ed/64 Scope:Link
UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1
RX packets:44374643 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0
TX packets:24944142 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0
collisions:0 txqueuelen:1000
RX bytes:3470024625 (3.2 GiB) TX bytes:3987538479 (3.7 GiB)
That is a lot better than the output of lsusb.
While, yes, that does require some network knowledge it is generally a lot easier to make heads or tails of than of what lsusb says.
Oh, right--this was where fenris02 decided I was insulting him--no, I am mostly just irritated, and venting a little.
I also want a problem solved... and my main instinct when a problem steps on me, so to bite it until it is solved.
19:40 < KatrinaTheLamia> found USB scanner (vendor=0x04b8, product=0x0854) at libusb:001:014
19:40 < KatrinaTheLamia> plug those two hex values into sanes search option.
19:41 -!- chia [~chia@117.254.215.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
19:41 < KatrinaTheLamia> It has been included since the four patch level of 1.0.12
19:41 < KatrinaTheLamia> though... it seems to have listed it as since "1.0.124"... I am mostly going to blame an accident with the version system
19:42 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, sane-find-scanner reports what?
19:42 < cpuobsessed> amabo: for gnome-shell? no; it's a part of desktop-effects
19:42 < cpuobsessed> yum install gnome-shell
19:42 -!- GungaDin [~yaron.hir@203.175.120.250] has joined #fedora
19:42 < KatrinaTheLamia> right... I will paste a more full form
19:42 < KatrinaTheLamia> [sanei_usb] sanei_usb_open: can't find device `/dev/usbscanner14' in list
19:42 < KatrinaTheLamia> [sanei_usb] sanei_usb_open: can't find device `/dev/usbscanner15' in list
19:42 < KatrinaTheLamia> found USB scanner (vendor=0x04b8, product=0x0854) at libusb:001:014 # Your USB scanner was (probably) detected. It may or may not be supported by # SANE. Try scanimage -L and read the backend's manpage.
19:43 < KatrinaTheLamia> those cannot find device exists for... well... over nine thansand lines above that.
19:43 < KatrinaTheLamia> if you want I can redirect STDERR and put that into pastebin
19:43 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, please use fpaste.org or dpaste.com for that.
19:43 < fenris02> much easier to follow that way.
Right-- fenris02... see... this was where I already doubted you ever cared to follow me. I just entered into you channel. Another fucker--but an angry noisy fucker.
Completely ignore the fact I pointed out everything above that is the same error message over and over again.
Completely ignore that the vendor id I gave earlier was from the command you asked for, and yet you asked for it again.
Completely ignore that there was only five lines of paste--five lines of paste that contains all you really need to know the issue here.
19:44 -!- Dephenom [~Paul@office.getresolved.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
19:44 < KatrinaTheLamia> in this case, it was only five lines... and most of the redundant crap was removed.
19:44 -!- ciupicri [~ciupicri@81.180.234.249] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
19:44 -!- kc8hfi [~kc8hfi@173.80.112.52] has joined #fedora
19:44 -!- severnaya [~severnaya@unaffiliated/severnaya] has joined #fedora
19:44 < KatrinaTheLamia> the important part are all the lines, fenris02, I would think, that it cannot find a device to talk to the scanner
19:44 -!- severnaya [~severnaya@unaffiliated/severnaya] has left #fedora []
19:45 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, and did you try 'scanimage -L' as suggested?
19:45 -!- DiscordianUK [~ch@fedora/DiscordianUK] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:45 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: no... no I doid... OF COURSE I DID...
19:45 * KatrinaTheLamia does that again
19:46 < spoleeba> fenris02, udev rules issue>
19:46 < spoleeba> fenris02, ?
19:46 -!- daMaestro [~jon@fedora/damaestro] has joined #fedora
19:46 < fenris02> spoleeba, possibly. i cant get the facts to find out
I gave you the facts you need, right at the beginning of this discussion.
This here is mostly for you to do an exercise in you ability to masturbate your passive aggressive prowelness.
You are not really showing any interest in the situation. The only reason you care is because I am coming here loudly. Chances are--the other result would be me pasting my question over and over again--with well... what happened last time.
I got told to head over to #sane... who kept directing me to #fedora.
When I get that from various phone lines, it usually means that I am phoning Canadian Government Workers--usually heavily incompetent ones.
My confidence in your solution is gone.
You got your data you need.
Please, just listen.
19:46 < fenris02> spoleeba, you are welcome to try instead
19:47 < spoleeba> fenris02, if i had any usb scanner to poke at...i would
19:47 -!- CapnKernel [~mjd@ppp59-167-188-93.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:47 < kc8hfi> i copied my old .fdi file from f12 and trying to use it in f13 isn't working quite right. did something change with the format or something?
19:48 < spoleeba> fenris02, i see the udev rule file..and the long list of scanners...and im just wondering...
Hey, fenris02... I cannot say this to your face--but the psycho yelling chick? I think she may have been correct here.
19:48 < fenris02> spoleeba, *nod* it is certainly a good suspect.
19:48 -!- dcr226 [~dcr226@80.175.89.153] has joined #fedora
You ass kissed me well enough--good, you get to be correct.
19:49 < KatrinaTheLamia> Like I have been saying my issue from the start was.
19:50 < KatrinaTheLamia> Hence why maybe... just maybe, under the step in most howtos, for even the 2.6 kernel (which last I checked I WAS using... I can run uname -ar if you want), to run at least one line of modprobe.
Oh, hey, fenris02... I am just going to voice my opinion on how spoleeba just said I was right, on the information I gave at the start of this.
Rather than this run around you did here, when you regarded me as fucker and did the long ass "is it plugged in spiel"
19:50 < spoleeba> KatrinaTheLamia, pardon...but can you give me the vendor and device id again...i want to try to look iot up in the udev rules for sane scanners
19:50 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, i've told you before, and i will only repeat it this once more. you are welcome to keep bashing away until you guess upon the solution, or ask and learn. if you insist on being sarchatic and unfriendly, i'm free to go elsewhere.
Well, yes, you are--you however do not.
In this case, you just kick me, rather than part the channel.
Again more passive aggressive bullshit.
If you are going to kick somebody, flat out say, "I will kick you if you continue."... please do not do this "I am the good guy. I am helping"--when all you are doing is nothing.
19:50 < fenris02> spoleeba, found USB scanner (vendor=0x04b8, product=0x0854) at libusb:001:014
19:51 -!- Skaperen [~phil@c-76-125-202-149.hsd1.wv.comcast.net] has joined #fedora
Okay--here he was actually helpful... it kind of required ass kissing though.
19:51 < spoleeba> fenris02, its in udev
19:51 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: right... perhaps you should ask... perhaps... perhaps maybe I did your way... about ooh--three weeks ago... in fact, I think this line of stuff did not work... I was then bounced over to sane
19:51 < spoleeba> fenris02, ATTRS{idVendor}=="04b8", ATTRS{idProduct}=="0854", ENV{libsane_matched}="yes"
19:51 < fenris02> spoleeba, yep. here too.
19:51 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: I am just a little bit frustrated, as previous experience shows that following these steps does not work.
Translation: I am sorry. I should not have used this channel to vent. You are starting to help me--so I will start to calm down.
19:51 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, ok. someone else can help you then. good luck.
Translation from Passive Aggressive to English: see, you are wrong. Your scanner works completely fine. This problem requires no more attention from any of us. Never mind that the only person who actually have attention to the situation was spoleeba.
Translation con't: I mean--I also did a large amount of going through the motion, so I looked helpful. So it is all good.
Oh--hey fenris02... guess what would have ended this situation here?
Just simply asking, is it in your udev file, Katrina? Here is the location, paste it onto a pastebin.
I mean, it is not like Katrina was the first to suggest using some paste bin, but risked pasting something that was only five lines--followed by me saying the rest is redundant and that I can paste the full STDERR output onto a pastebin.
19:51 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: you ARE aware of the definition of insanity then
For those of you unaware:
The definition of insanity is trying the exact same stuff over and over again--and magically expecting some different result without any reason for it to be prompted.
I figured that was somewhat more tactful that what it translates out to:
Translation: FUCK YOU! I have done those steps several times. I'd sooner try to use the Goggles.
19:52 < pixinvent> I LOVE FEDORA
19:52 -!- goldfish [~goldfish@co1fw01-02-e-0-0-v315-gw.tradefair.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
19:52 < pixinvent> I'm just saying.
19:52 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: yeah... and somehow, I doubt that would be help ful either... wait... I KNOW! IS MY BLOODY COMPUTER TURNED ON >.>'
19:52 -!- sindrepb [~sindrepb@c1E6F47C1.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #fedora
19:52 -!- cobra-the-joker [~cobra@41.131.85.14] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
19:52 -!- StrikerTTD [~Striker@184.76.215.27] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:52 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, correct your attitude or go elsewhere. NOW.
You clearly are not kissing my ass enough.
19:52 < KatrinaTheLamia> pixinvent: actually I love it too... just... the error I am having is very unexpected.. and it is frustrating as it seems that there is no solution
19:52 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: okay-I will still myself.
BTW: am I the only one that thinks my next two lines are to the effect of attempting to disarm the situation.
However, the ire of fenris02 has been risen. The person asking for help, did not play his games, did not kiss his ass, and pointed out his exact behaviours.
The only thing that will come next is being dunked into a pool full of Hungry Sharks with Frikkin Laser Beams on Their Foreheads.
19:53 < Skaperen> last time I tried to use Fedora ... which was a while back (Fedora 9 I think) ... I could not figure this out ... but I'm going to try to set up a machine with Fedora 13 tomorrow ... what I want to do ahead of time is get a list of all packages I could choose to install (and browse through them and make choices ahead of time)
19:53 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: that was not attitude... it was mostly just veniting. Not aimed at anybody in particular.
19:53 < Anpan> pixinvent: i loved it too... until today
19:53 < fenris02> Skaperen, the install guide is an excellent place to start
19:53 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: mostly to just let off some steam.
BTW--I have a funny idea.. or theory on how to be much more happy.
I generally ignore people letting of steam in these.
If somebody is swearing and getting rather sarcastic, I merely take it as symptoms that maybe they are human, and frustrated. A gentle hand is a best touch--rather than telling them that if they do not start kissing my ass, and playing my games, their problem will never be solved.
I have seen people that frustrated in channels I have been able to help in.
Noting that I seem to be using some dialect of English here, likely EN-GB, maybe EN-CA--it is fairly obvious that I show some intelligence. I also flat out told him how I felt the situation was occurring here. To his face. I apologised once, and mentioned that I would try to calm down. However, it was typically answered with passive aggressive nonsense--and only going through the motions of help. With no real interest in doing so.
19:53 < Skaperen> fenris02: I believe that is what I did last time ... have they added a list of packages now?
19:53 < pixinvent> If you have a hard time setting up fedora just do the live CD. It's easy Ubuntu style.
19:53 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, keep it up and i will also let off some steam ... in your direction. Now, behave.
19:53 -!- rigeld2 [~Rob@ab1-4-160.shsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
19:54 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: why do you think I am flaming people?
19:54 < fenris02> Skaperen, what is it you're looking for specifically?
19:54 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: because I am not
Spoiler: If you are not fluent with Passive Aggressiveness, he was generally flaming me a lot more.
I was merely reacting in an honest way. Generally considering his way, less than honest, and generally very irritating, frustrating and not worth my time to deal with.
19:54 -!- mck182 [~quassel@93.91.241.53] has joined #fedora
19:54 < Anpan> pixinvent: i doubt that would fix my problem with missing wlan and the keyboard that doesn't work
19:54 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: have I insulted anybody since I got in here?
19:54 -!- papillon-butineu is now known as alphad
19:54 < pixinvent> The Fedora 13 DVD lets you specify the packages. It's awesome. I love the minimal install.
19:54 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: if anything, you have been more insulting to me.
19:54 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: now lets move on.
Why do I feel like I am repeating myself here?
Ohh... lets see..
19:32 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: okay... how do I do this?
[...]
19:43 < KatrinaTheLamia> those cannot find device exists for... well... over nine thansand lines above that.
19:43 < KatrinaTheLamia> if you want I can redirect STDERR and put that into pastebin
[...]
19:45 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: no... no I doid... OF COURSE I DID...
19:45 * KatrinaTheLamia does that again
[...]
19:51 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: right... perhaps you should ask... perhaps... perhaps maybe I did your way... about ooh--three weeks ago... in fact, I think this line of stuff did not work... I was then bounced over to sane
[...]
19:51 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: I am just a little bit frustrated, as previous experience shows that following these steps does not work.
[...]
19:52 < KatrinaTheLamia> pixinvent: actually I love it too... just... the error I am having is very unexpected.. and it is frustrating as it seems that there is no solution
19:52 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: okay-I will still myself.
[...]
19:53 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: that was not attitude... it was mostly just veniting. Not aimed at anybody in particular.
Translation: I am sorry that you took offense. This was not aimed at you. Please stop acting like I am punching your mom in the stomach repetitive while I force her to watch me shove a pineapple up your Dad's rear end.
[...]
19:54 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: why do you think I am flaming people?
19:54 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: because I am not
Translation: you seem awfully pissing about what I am saying here. Nobody else has complained. Heck, if you had just shut up, and quit acting like you had something that only resembles a slightly larger than average lack of desire to help, some of the others would have jumped in.
No, I insulted Fedora... as... it did not work perfectly out the box... you'd think I defecated on your grandma's grave and used the flowers as tissue.
It is an OS--it is normal for something to not work. I am a human (I think), it is normal for me to be frustrated at a situation. It is also normal for when I gave a full summary on the situation, even gave you all the useless data you needed to stroke that ego of yours that you may have been helping--you still maintain I do the steps I did again, that did not work.
Also, if you had perhaps asked for a past of my udev file, as, you know what? It may have been incomplete. There are countless things that could get in the way here. I appologise to the audience (yes all i3 of you) for speaking the tongue fenris02 was using here. The translation is: probably one or two typical things that can be shrugged off, and worked to fix the situation more fully.
[...]
19:54 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: have I insulted anybody since I got in here?
19:54 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: if anything, you have been more insulting to me.
19:54 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: now lets move on.
Right... Citation needed obviously:
19:32 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, ok, you do whatever you feel is best. when you want it working let me know
[...]
19:40 < KatrinaTheLamia> found USB scanner (vendor=0x04b8, product=0x0854) at libusb:001:014
19:42 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, sane-find-scanner reports what?
19:42 < KatrinaTheLamia> found USB scanner (vendor=0x04b8, product=0x0854) at libusb:001:014 # Your USB scanner was (probably) detected. It may or may not be supported by # SANE. Try scanimage -L and read the backend's manpage.
[...]
19:43 < KatrinaTheLamia> those cannot find device exists for... well... over nine thansand lines above that.
19:43 < KatrinaTheLamia> if you want I can redirect STDERR and put that into pastebin
19:43 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, please use fpaste.org or dpaste.com for that.
19:43 < fenris02> much easier to follow that way.
19:44 < KatrinaTheLamia> in this case, it was only five lines... and most of the redundant crap was removed.
Translation:
Katrina: I pretty much took two lines of the exact same errors over and over again, and put them after the final output line.
Fenris02: Please, this is my world. We need to follow my rules, whether or not they apply here.
Fenris02: With your large paste, I have issues following its intrinsic structure
Katrina: You... cannot follow five lines?
[...]
19:46 < spoleeba> fenris02, udev rules issue>
19:46 < spoleeba> fenris02, ?
19:46 < fenris02> spoleeba, possibly. i cant get the facts to find out
Katrina Aside: You are a pretty sharp fellow aren't you. I mean, not somebody that any details get past. No wonder all of my fedora issues have not been due to small quirks or glitches that paying a little attention would fix
[...]
19:50 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, i've told you before, and i will only repeat it this once more. you are welcome to keep bashing away until you guess upon the solution, or ask and learn. if you insist on being sarchatic and unfriendly, i'm free to go elsewhere.
[...]
19:51 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, ok. someone else can help you then. good luck.
[...]
19:52 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, correct your attitude or go elsewhere. NOW.
[...]
19:53 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, keep it up and i will also let off some steam ... in your direction. Now, behave.
-=-
Okay, yes, I did fire stuff off at him. And you know what the correct thing would be here? To have helped the others-- and let that spleeba fellow help.
19:54 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, you are also disrupting everyone else that wants assistance.
Oh, hey, citation needed here:
19:35 < amabo> how might i go about installing gnome 3 with fedora 13?
19:35 < fenris02> amabo, su -c "yum install @gnome-desktop"
9:40 < cpuobsessed> amabo: gnome 3 isn't out yet, you can install what they are calling a preview: gnome-shell
19:40 < amabo> cpuobsessed: do i have to recompile a kernal or anything like that?
19:42 < cpuobsessed> amabo: for gnome-shell? no; it's a part of desktop-effects
19:42 < cpuobsessed> yum install gnome-shell
Summary: somebody wanting to preview software already out.
Status: Solved
[...]
19:30 * Anpan starts to despair
19:31 < Anpan> if things stay like this, i have to go back to windows. And thats what i totally want to avoid.
19:35 < Anpan> So nobody can/wants to help me anymore?
19:36 < fenris02> Anpan, your driver was not found in kmod-staging? you sure?
19:36 < Anpan> fenris02: well, the networkmanager doesn't show any signs of wlan being available
19:37 < fenris02> Anpan, did you install kmod-staging successfully?
19:37 < Anpan> fenris02: yum didn't return any errors, at least.
Summary: Somebody whining. It is attempting to look like asking for help.
Status: undetermined. I got kicked before we could see if she got it online. Her reply may have been delayed due to network shifts.
Help Process: Same status quo, reading from the long list of check list that from the looks of it, Anpan already tried--and did not work.
Chances help would work: little to none.
Likely unless she has a physical agent next to her to allow somebody near by to help her out, she is going back to windows in about six months.
From the looks of it, she will be another user saying Linux is too complicated.
The online help is fine here--but this is the sort of thing somebody physical nearby (that is, somebody real) would be best.
[...]
19:47 < kc8hfi> i copied my old .fdi file from f12 and trying to use it in f13 isn't working quite right. did something change with the format or something?
Summary: vague summary of a floppy disk image from Fedora 12... tried to use it in Fedora 13.
Status: ignored
Chances to get helped:
Used the .fdi file extension to shorten the fact that I am guessing he used a F12 bootdisk for launching the installer CD. And tried it again for Fedora 13.
This is probably going to through them all through a loop. Chances are they will ask why not boot off of the CD ROM instead of the floppy. Chances are two replies will be made
1) Hardware issues
Likely response) time for an upgrade
2) desire for a network install
Likely response) ignoring them for a more "real" issue.
Proper solution:
- Confirm he is talking talking about a Floppy Image. There may have been an error with guest OSes and is guest OS of Amiga may have been screwed in the upgrade. He may also be using a library to run Amiga programs natively. An upgrade of this level, likely would upgrade this software enough that it may cause issues.
- Reply that the new floppy probably knows to target the newer sections of the CD orDVD media--as well a a better idea of how to grab Fedora 13 as a network install.
[...]
19:53 < Skaperen> last time I tried to use Fedora ... which was a while back (Fedora 9 I think) ... I could not figure this out ... but I'm going to try to set up a machine with Fedora 13 tomorrow ... what I want to do ahead of time is get a list of all packages I could choose to install (and browse through them and make choices ahead of time)
19:53 < fenris02> Skaperen, the install guide is an excellent place to start
19:53 < Skaperen> fenris02: I believe that is what I did last time ... have they added a list of packages now?
19:54 < fenris02> Skaperen, what is it you're looking for specifically?
19:54 < pixinvent> The Fedora 13 DVD lets you specify the packages. It's awesome. I love the minimal install.
Summary: Skaperen trying to install Fedora, like it is Debian or a BSD.
Status: Solved
-=-
19:52 < pixinvent> I LOVE FEDORA
19:52 < pixinvent> I'm just saying.
19:53 < pixinvent> If you have a hard time setting up fedora just do the live CD. It's easy Ubuntu style.
19:54 < Anpan> pixinvent: i doubt that would fix my problem with missing wlan and the keyboard that doesn't work
Summary: Attention Whoring.
Status: Ignored. pixinvent is not ass kissing quite right
Chances to be helped:
Why? I kind of agree with him.
-=-
And thus at the end:
19:54 -!- CARAM [~C@ip72-211-238-98.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #fedora
19:54 < Skaperen> fenris02: a list of packages
19:54 -!- mode/#fedora [+b *!~root13@li130-87.members.linode.com] by fedbot
19:54 -!- KatrinaTheLamia was kicked from #fedora by fedbot [time out]
--- Log closed Wed May 26 19:54:53 2010
So the horrible issue of I got banned from a channel of unhelpful people on the internet.
My response: I bitch about it on a blog that nobody reads or cares about. I mean, most blogs at least have +5 people... I have i5... that is instead of positive five people, or negative five people, I have an imaginary number of viewers.
I think my response is justified.
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