(Possibly backhanded) apology to the users of #Fedora of Freenode

*sighs*

Okay, I am going to apologise to the channel of #fedora on FreeNode. Sorry, it is not your fault that fenris02 is a complete and total arrogant prick.

I did get my current scanner issues solved (tendatively). Somebody started to help me go through and find where the udev and hal entries. This person (I apologise that I cannot remember that user's name) was generally very helpful, in helping me find my problem.

We found that the problem is one along the lines of "it works the same as it always has.". IE: The reason my scanner does not work is due to "Bit rot" sort of reasons.

I mean, the solution is not "Katrina is an idiot" so much as "Katrina is running an insanely ancient distribution of Fedora"

So, going in for a reinstall. As /boot is only 200MiB in size. Fedora 12 and Fedora 13 both require /boot to be 512MiB. I probably will have that partition be about 1024MiB though.

Now, I probably would not be as irritated with fenris02, still, if he was not peppering comments of "just because you are too stupid to understand my help--does not mean it is not brilliant."

He now exists in my head, as "fuckers who think that something is clever, based on how little it is understood". Noting that I know of two types of humans, "people" and "fuckers". I care about people. Fuckers are just another set of statistics.

First off, from a few of the other blog entries here, and links to my GitHub account you have likely seen, there is a chance, that maybe, just maybe, I am not completely new to computers. Yes, I understand that there is worlds of knowledge that I do not know of. However, his constant calling me an idiot, and talking to me like a Dalnet user, gets grating.

Personally, I have this rather silly notion, or idea, that if you require jargon to explain something. That is, another language that is only English in that English is a Pidgin language of sorts, then, this something is completely useless.

If I cannot pitch some concept, no matter how technical, so that your average Joe can comprehend what is going on (maybe not at that high of level, but he can still get it), then I do not think the idea is really worth saying it is good. I will also say, that if I cannot explain it in simple standard English, then I fail to understand it, as much as the layman.

Not to say that any idea if explained in English means I understand it, though. I mean, all dobbermens are dogs, but not all dogs are dobbermens.

This is well--mostly due to a lot of influence from my Father. My father is of the opinion, you cannot understand something, if you cannot explain it, or present it in some form. He also gave me the knowledge that no matter how brilliant an idea, if it stays in your head--and is not given any sort of form, either by descriptions or proof of concept, then the idea, for all purposes of the word, does not exist.

My father, is also a fairly skilled technician that the only reason he does not have an engineer's degree is because of his extreme disdain for engineers. So, his set of opinions makes sense.

It really does not help, that the largest handitards on the planet, generally tend to be all about how intelligent they are. Usually screaming out about how much smarter you are than somebody the more likely I am going to think you are excessively retarded. Especially if you start waving around positions and papers you have.

Respect is earned by your interactions with people. Not demanded by positions of power or claims of knowledge.

Gah! Why are Pogeymanz fans so bloody silly?! Gen V speculation rant

Please--some speculation is fine really, it is. However, if you are going to speculate, please take into account previous events in the series.

First off, the starters.

Okay, I am fine with people disliking certain generations of starters. People have been hating the various starterssince about Gen III. I do not have a problem with it. Saying that you hate all of the starters of a certain generation.

Just keep on that attitude. I tend to see a fair amount of "well, I liked the Gen III starters--I mean, they had flavour and various elements to them that war me up. However, I absolutely hate the Gen V starters. I mean, look at that complete rip off of squirtle and piplup."

Okay--you have the memory of a gnat. As typically you just go back a few years, and see either, they were not around for the Gen III stuff... OR, they hated the crap out of the starters. Saying silly things like how much Mudkipz will suck. Or laughing at the flaming chicken. That Gecko thing? Horrid.

Then Gen IV comes. Everybody hates those starters. Turtwig? When it came out, you were hating it. Chimchar? Oh great, another fire fighting. And a flaming monkey to boot. Those cads at Nintendo! I mean, what is their problem! Well, at least Piplup looks good. I mean, the others completely suck, and will never be used. Ever. No way that I can see them ever being used.

Now, we get to Gen V. You'd think we'd know better than to bitch about the starters this time around. I mean, we can get a jolly laugh at how wrong we were with Gen III and Gen IV--and look at these pictures, and speculate in positive ways.

Then, we get people ripping on the water starter. Okay--do they have a valid argument? It is a rip off of Squirtle and Piplup you say?

This, I really do not follow--one bit.

Maybe it is because I have some amount of knowledge of various biologically real animals in our world. Not a lot. There are tons of gaps in my knowledge. I am just wondering how a flippin' Sea Otter gets mistaken for a Turtle or a Penguin. Perhaps explain this to me?

I mean--no, I get it, the water types are much easier to base on animals in real life. Hence why they seem similar. As most of these are based on adaptions to living in water.

I mean, we have various wonderful creatures in our oceans here, that have adapted a lot of ways to live. Yes, some of them are similar--which would make Manaphy and Phione a complete rip off of Tentacool and Tentacruel in that sense. However, in comparison to say, the fire types. There are much less for creatures that live in a constant state of being on fire.

Yes, we have Slugma and Macargo. The only other two IRL creatures that spend a notable time on fire, are Buddhist monks and Poltergeist. Though, if we were to base a Buddhist Monk on Fire/Psychic, we'd have a lot of people referring to the resulting monster as "Carrie"--and trying for a female one.

Poltergeist is a hard one, as it kind of requires a psychic nearby. As typically, following cryptozoology, Poltergeist are not creatures--so much as the psionic abstraction of a really stressed out teenage girl. Be them apparently female, or a variant of MtF. I dunno--that would be fun to see a Shedinja style evolution here. Possibly with a six Pokemon appearing in your party of Fire/Ghost, if you have your Fire/Psychic Pokemon get sufficiently ticked off with you.

Okay, so due to the sheer lack of IRL creatures that are in reality on fire at any notable amount of time, they are kind of forced to get creative here. He have creatures that are based on various mytholigcal creatures normally to deal with fire. Such as Salamander (Charmander), Hedgehog (cyndaquil), Chicken??? (Torchic) and a Monkey. Personally, I like the idea of the last two. A six foot kick boxing chicken and a flaming monkey ARE fairly nice to stand next to.

Personally, I tend to breed my flaming kick boxing chicken in with my flaming monkey producing the following movset:

• Fire Punch
• Focus Energy
• Blaze Kick
• Double Kick

but, mostly because I really do not like the U-turn/Close Combat combo. Just personal preference here. That is my only issue with it, really.

I mean, now because we do not have animals constantly on fire, save some slugs, poltergeist (paranormal), and Buddhist monks, in comparison to a large amount of creatures that live in THE FRAKING WATER we have complaints on water types.

I really do not get how a sea otter is a ripoff of a turtle or a penguin. I do not think I will ever know.

I mean--bitching and moaning about the starters just gets a little annoying after a while. Especially when the people doing it know they are fully justified. Only to have them go back to liking them, once we get to Gen VI or Gen VII. You just know that these are the same people that will realise how wrong they are.

Next, we get into seeing the legendaries. You know what? They are legendaries. I do not give a flying crap about them. Want to know why?

Arceus is Zubat.

Hear me out here. Remember Mewtwo? A Pokemon that made use of Mew, to be compatible enough to graft all the DNA of the strongest Pokemon in the world. To make Mewtwo the greatest fighter ever conceived? Do you remember this idea that he was engineered to be God amongst Pokemon.

These are the same creatures that blink, and entire cities are in ruin.

Now, fast forward to Gen IV and Gen III. Mewtwo, while in an upper tier, generally is nothing that special. He will get his ass kicked by plenty of other legendaries just fine. Which, in my opinion, justifies his angsty state. As he was essentially made to suck sort of thing. Heck, two nonlegends are easily capable of taking him on to the point of "you mah hoe!" status, those being Wobbuffet and Garchomp.

The idea of being the bottom to Wobbuffet scares me more than being married to Bubba in prison, just to let you know. And to Mewtwo, I can understand the horror that this analogy demonstrates.

By the time, Gen VI or Gen VII comes around. Arceus will be Zubat.

So, really, the Legendaries do not interest me. what does?

Well, I really like Red Chocobo's and Zorak's additions to the world of Pokemon:

Let's Play Pokemon Emerald

Let's Play Pokemon Crystal

Let's Play Pokemon Quartz

Let's Play Pokemon Fire Red

From what I have seen of Red Chocobo's take on Platinum, it is pretty awesome as well.

If anything, it is more the society, culture and the people. The world that exists in here. The folklore. The local customs. How things work and operate in this world. The flora, the fauna--the normal things.

I find the common Pokemon more interesting that the legendaries. As to me, they are more real. The legendaries do have some form--but they really are not a major or real part of people's day to day lives.

Possibly with me MSTing the whole thing as I go through it. I have been known to scream at the Tv while playing Pokemon XD: Gale of Darkness.

I also have been noted, that if I were to design a game, I would most likely end with something on par with a Super Mario World: Kaizo difficultly level.

And--oh dear... we have Shippings starting on.. the.. characters... we only have two sketches of the characters... and people are already trying to name the shipping that they will have.

Okay, you know what? I am just going to leave this alone. As, I have never really understood the idea of shippings. I somehow watched Sailor Moon, during its original North American Tv Airing in the mid-1990s, and got through it, without bothering to really care about who ends up with who.

This concept personally troubles me.

As well--a few years later, in the Sonic Archie comics, I was fully supporting of Julie Sue and Knuckles getting together, and pointing to the idea of Sally Acorn and Sonic getting together.

Yeah, I am one of those silly Sonic fans. This is why when people try to tell me I am smart, I point out that people tell that drooling guy over there eating crayons and talking about his birthday party how people tell him that he is smart and can do anything if he tries.

Now excuse me--I am not entirely certain my vacant drooling form is quite at the right level to get phrase of "you are sooooo special and smart!". Any recommendations of colours of crayons to eat to get this status? I hear that yellow is particularly good. Purple, not so much. Yes, Purple has one of the most not worthy tastes--but itis not good to promote drooling. It really does not build the brain enough to allow for people talk about extravagant galas at Chuck E. Cheese's in Hawaii either. I mean, the more the mentally retarded kids talk about that stuff, the more their care taker tells them, "oh, you are sooooo smart. You can do anything!"

So, yes, I guess, being a Sonic fan, could put me in a similar "very special and intelligent" level of regarding.

I mean, the only shippings I can ever think I have ever done (or even remotely cared about) were to deal with Sonic the Hedgehog at the age of fifteen or sixteen.

So quite clearly, I am not at the sage enough level to understand these concepts or ideas. I know they are there. However, much like most people can turn on a Tv, without noting how Liquid Crystal Displays or Cathode Ray Tubes operate, I will note that they are part of my world, even if I cannot understand their inner workings. This also means, I will not poke around with their insides. Like most people should probably not be poking around in a Television set.

Why do I even bother?

I mean, these are the same fans that refer to moves as "OMG HAX!" (which is on the level, in my mind, with people saying that stuff in CounterStrike). They call game modifications "Game Hacks"--which would make CounterStrike a Halflife "Hack" in comparison. As most of what they are doing with Pokemon Games are the same stuff that was done on DOOM I and DOOM II to allow for FPS modifications. Also similar stuff was done on games like X-Com, various D&D RPG Systems and Fallout, to make modifications in Elder Scrolls and Fallout 3 seem to be common place.

However, it is not like these are not educated people here. I mean, look at their tools. Done in... Visual Basic 5 and Java. The Java one (shoddy) is done by somebody, who in my only real conversation with him, claimed to attend the University of Alberta. When questioned the location of the Sciences Campus, he did not seem to understand that various UoA Campuses are scattered all over Alberta. With the Sciences Campus being located in Camrose, a small city south east of Edmonton with no major transport to and from Edmonton. He kept saying I was weird, for the suggestions that all the campuses were not in one spot--and chiding me for going to the lesser NAIT--and Institute of Technology.

These same highly educated people, who do not release their source to a buggy Visual Basic 5 application, because they do not want people to steal their code.

When it IS Open Source, they do silly things, like hard coding various numbers into them. Like the RNG reporter that has an entire section that generates a small in memory database as something to be compiled into the resulting binary. Rather than say, maybe making a database that could be customised.

It is irritating to see various best practices, such as MVC, modular coding, scripting and large amounts of stuff in PEP-8 not in anyway present in these.

And I have no issue with running something for the JVM. Go crazy. The JVM is actually surprisingly well designed. The language Java, however, is not. If you ARE going to work with the JVM, allowing your software to enter into enterprise areas, I would suggest going with Clojure or JRuby. If Jython was not still based on python version 2.1, 2.2, 2.3, apparently 2.5 (for reference the current stable of Python is 2.6, and testing is 2.7 and 3.0). I would also suggest that. And if that coder who promised to release Jerl 6 would do her job...

I mean, you know what? Maybe, I am not the only one crazy enough to suggest a C based framework to do a set of libraries for Pokemon applications. Be them to modify games, simulate or just be elaborate calculators? C based frameworks that follow a large amount of those books on programming theory made in the 1970s. Which suck. of course. I mean, how could they know about efficient code? I mean, they STILL were working within 64KiB of RAM. Computers were the sizes of small houses. Efficiency in software obviously was not something they knew at all. I mean, today, we are totally better. I mean, my program can totally run in 4GiB of RAM, with a 1TiB Harddrive--why am I suggesting it is bad, that we should require this, for something that this could be done on your old 486 with only 16MiB of RAM. Can't I tell that we are doing so much more with our processors today? er--going off on another rant here.

Evidentially, I am not eating enough paint chips to understand these people's really intelligent ideas.

Also, I apologise for the links to wikipedia here. Most of those however, are just for general knowledge of the subject. There are generally better ways to look into the subject-based on your Operating System of choice.

I hope that when June comes--I can cooperate with admins better

Okay--I admit. We are into May. Which, you know what? It is fucking stressful. School tests--which tend to affect students, teachers... and people who hire students.

I am just going to assume that the admin that kicked me was stress prior to me entering the chat. The thing is--that is not something you take onto being justified admining.

Unfortunately--like most issues in IRC, the memories are short of the events... but the impressions last.

Apparently fenris impression of me is that I am an impeccable. I have talked to him on Freenode--fairly often before this. I can swear I have seen him in places other than #fedora. Though--there is a small chances that this may have been an off shoot of another incident on the same server.

If there is one thing I know how to do it is get under people's skin.

Now, lets give a background of my situation.

I bought this scanner a month ago. I have been having issues getting it working. As you can see in the log, I appear to be able to point to how to find out where to find the drivers--and what version it first appeared in.

Also, I have been in enough spots on FreeNode for long enough that, your best assumption is that my first attempt was to RTFM. Possibly look on Google.

Now, into the log:


--- Log opened Wed May 26 19:29:21 2010
19:29 -!- KatrinaTheLamia [~root13@li130-87.members.linode.com] has joined #fedora
19:29 -!- Irssi: #fedora: Total of 430 nicks [2 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 428 normal]
19:29 -!- Irssi: Join to #fedora was synced in 1 secs
19:29 < KatrinaTheLamia> uh--quick question what package contains the kernel modules that allow sane to talk to my scanner?
19:29 -!- dhaval [~dhaval@nat-cataldo.sssup.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
19:30 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, kernel modules? you mean usb?
19:30 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: something like that.
19:30 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, or do you mean sane modules found in sane-backends?
19:30 < KatrinaTheLamia> I was looking through /lib
19:30 < KatrinaTheLamia> uh... my issues stems from modprobe having no clue what I am talking about.
19:30  * Anpan starts to despair
19:31 < KatrinaTheLamia> As the kernel modules I need are well--not there.

Okay--you know what? I can see fenris02's newbie alarms going off on this... if we were still back in the days of Linux 0.97 and 2.0 and 2.2.

As you know what? Back then, that was very common. Today, we are in the modern day of the 2.6 kernel. Typically with only a few throwbacks to the 2.4 kernel. Which has a few howtos suggest a single line of `modprobe scanner` typically.

Trust me--that does show up in the USB trouble shoot sections of a few SANE howtos.

Perhaps look at:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~ljm/SANE-faq.html

file://localhost/usr/share/doc/sane-backends-*/plustek/Plustek-USB.txt

http://www.sane-project.org/README.linux

http://www.zianet.com/k5di/usb/usb-scanner.txt

http://www.howtoforge.com/sane_xsane_scanner

http://www.graphics-muse.org/wp/?p=428

I mean, this was beyond the various man pages and docs on my system... which was my first look.

Typically following

$ man xsane

$ man scan-image

$ man sane-find-scanner

I even decided that perhaps maybe my debug level was not high enough so the following ENV variables were set:

SANE_DEBUG_EPSON2=4

ANE_DEBUG_SANEI_USB=4

So--my debug levels were ridiculously high enough that if SANE had a slight case of the sniffles, it would wake the dead. Causing the brain hungry undead to roam the earth gnawing on the flesh of humans.

I noticed a pattern in my errors:

[sanei_usb] sanei_usb_open: can't find device `/dev/usbscanner9' in list

[sanei_usb] sanei_usb_open: can't find device `/dev/usbscanner10' in list

[sanei_usb] sanei_usb_open: can't find device `/dev/usbscanner11' in list

Okay... let us go under my basic understanding of how linux works. Perhaps, maybe my understanding of Linux is at fault here.

Linux is typically a name for a group of software that work in tandem with together to produce useful results. Remove on element, and it destroys the balance.

Essentially you have the kernel--the center of any large computer program. Typically Operating Systems will have a kernel--but there are plenty of largely created programs that require a lot of work to them that will typically have one centre called the kernel. Various large GUI projects will have a kernel. Items that deal with issues with timing will often have a kernel.

The kernel is probably better spelled as "Colonel". (I may have to refer to a kernel as the naming of "RearAdmiral").

Most "applications" within the framework containing the kernel generally require the kernel to tell them where to go. They build onto the kernel, and may talk between a few of themselves for functionality.

Then there are other elements that are build on layers on that.

In this case.

You have the hardware.

You have the linux kernel

You have init.d (process 0).

You have various applications for super user land.

Then you have user land.

SANE typically is meant to exist in user land. Though, with a few elements in super user land.

Those /dev/ entries? Typically indicate something going on around the linux kernel level.

The /dev file system is something that is done on various UNIX and UNIX workalike systems. It does not exist. Typically, it indicates a list of devices that the kernel currently has an idea of how to talk to.

These files in this file system do not exist on your hard drive--except for their inode values. 

An Inode typically an entry, to my understanding that tells a long about what the "file" is or does and is located for accounting purposes--I admit shakiness on my understanding of this. I do know that if you end up running out of inodes before you run out of space, the device will act as though you have no space on it--though... this never happens in modern systems. Not certain if it is because we have several TiB hard drives on the market--or if advances in partition formats, such as ntfs, jfs, xfs, rieserfs and ext9001, have made it so that running out of inodes is insanely hard to do. It probably is both.

So, these files that it was trying to find in /dev, typically are representations of what the kernel is able to understand and do.

The thing is--these tutorials generally mention that udev should do it automatically (you at user land do not need to worry your pretty little head off... udev will protect you!). They rarely point to locations that may fix or correct udev entries should they fail.

A few of the ones I listed, will point to `modprobe` as a solution for both 2.4 and 2.6. Mind you, 2.4 does have a lot more to load--typically 2.6 only has scanner or usbscanner. This is mostly to let the system know that hey "this is how you talk to scanners"

And go through the tutorials--not all of them suggest this solution. Some say it should just work--though I admit that trying the modprobe may have been Cargo Cult Code--but the last time I have had a working scanner was on 2.4... and that means, I had to run those two or three modprobe commands before I could use sane.

I mean--okay... I could see it as a newbie type question if the documents supported looking through the kernel modules for the scanner.

Which I kind of state--there was nothing, indicating anything in there for any usb talking to a scanner. There was a few generic "talk to devices"--which generally were supported by other items such as CUPS.

I must admit that it is nice that these have generic talk to devices while there is a large amount of external network hardware stuff my modules list and a few external hard drive type stuff.

Internal, go crazy--if you got something varying from SATA, IDE, SCSI or Ribbon based connections.

However, that other external stuff? Mayhaps apply the same policy. Personally, I want to see some form of kernel module that just sends wireless hardware handling to an software point. This however, would allow for various Wifi type conventions to be completely broken at a coder's whim.

My understanding of it, was that even after the device was plugged in it did not see it here.

19:31 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, because you dont use modprobe for scanners typically ...

19:31 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: yes, I know

19:31 -!- jeansch [~jeansch@216.252.92.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]

19:31 < Anpan> if things stay like this, i have to go back to windows. And thats what i totally want to avoid.

19:31 -!- StrikerTTD [~Striker@184.76.215.27] has joined #fedora

19:31 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: however pretty much ever SANE howto has a setp that uses modprobe in it.

19:32 < KatrinaTheLamia> for 2.4, 2.5 and 2.6 kernels at least.

I was about to point out that this was not a typical situation, as we have various /dev/ entries not showing up.

19:32 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, ok, you do whatever you feel is best. when you want it working let me know

Translation from Passive Aggressive to English. I do not know the answer--however I am going to make it well known that what you are doing is incorrect. I refuse to be helpful--and will mostly wait here while you struggle and just answer with I told you so.

Please, fenris02, we have seen each other in the channel a few times. Typically I have some idea on what I am doing--my issue is that it is not the Fedora way. Which does have some good traits. Heck some wonderful traits. However, you guys suck at getting it out there.

I mean, okay, you DO have a wiki for setting up various items. The issue is, that it obvious has a very bad search engine ranking, as well--I do not think I have ever seen it appear in Google. I mean, I am more likely to see forums dealing with porting my program to a legacy version of Amiga OS and their issues, before I see the fedora help site in google.

It does not show up as standard bookmark in the browsers I run (which I have never removed the fedora bookmarks). While I do not place many bookmarks--I have issues remembering the domain name.

It only pisses me off that it SHOULD be something easy to remember--however in my mind... it is just one step outside of helpful.

Now, the Fedora Forums do show up--I do not really bother with forums for help.

You get three typical answers:

Answer A:

Somebody whining about an issue--and people agreeing they cannot get it to work either. These get irritating to see when you have solved it--but for some reason are unable to post on your solution.

Answer B:

Somebody claims to have solved it. People confirm it. Wait a few months--and they disappear. New people come it, talking about how the solution gave does not work. Even faithfully repeating every reported conditions.

Answer C:

A problem is posted. Then they say they solved it--without really pointing out what happened. I mean, even an "I dunno--magic shoe pixies?" would be a good answer here. Answer C sucks for me--because all it leaves me wondering is, "okay--that is nice... why does it not work for me"

Further more, the Fedora help wiki is surprisingly under documented. There is a large amount of sections that are in a state of fill in later.

Which is nice--I understand people are busy, and there is a lot to talk about. This kind of negates it as "a place to go for help" though.

Okay... so...

We have fenrir02 here... obviously not wanting to help.

And guess what? That passive aggressive comment is what sparked the fire.

He showed no indication of helping--flat off from the start, he branded me as a newbie somehow following philosophies from Kernel version 2.1 era (which do not even appear in many tutorials either these days). 

I mean, was I really that stupid, the modern equivalent was "I clicked the GUI, it did not work."

I can live with fenrir02 going senile though.

19:32 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: I want it working now

19:32 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: okay... how do I do this?

19:32 -!- d33p_th0ught [~fizzy@unaffiliated/fizzy] has joined #fedora

19:32 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, step 1) stop playing around with modprobe.

19:32 -!- cpuobsessed [~tim@adsl-074-183-121-238.sip.bgk.bellsouth.net] has joined #fedora

19:32 < KatrinaTheLamia> As just about ever document I could find on google fail on the step that requires modprobe to be used.

19:32 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, what scanner do you have?

19:32 -!- jerry [~jerry@67-197-6-67.rh1.dyn.cm.comporium.net] has joined #fedora

19:32 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: one that is in the epson2 sane-backend

19:33 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, how many entries do you have in dll.conf ?

19:33 < KatrinaTheLamia> I have removed everything expect for epson2 and net

19:33 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, does "lsusb" show your scanner?

19:33 -!- daMaestro [~jon@fedora/damaestro] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]

19:34 < cpuobsessed> whoa! photorec is AWESOME!

19:34 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: the issue stems from  the fact that no where in /dev is /dev/usbscanner\d+ or /dev/usb/scanner\d+

19:34 < KatrinaTheLamia> I have put sane-find-scanner's debug level up to four on several spots... it has no idea how to talk to any form of scanner hardware

19:34 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, does "lsusb" show your scanner?

Okay, fenris02... I pointed out what I saw the issue here. Please stop going into "is it plugged in mode".

I mean--it is generally very irritated that I am frustrated that this scanner has not been working for about a month, and your general going into your old drills, when I have pointed out my situation was that I have ran various items here--and guess what? The error is that I do not have the devices to allow programs to interact with the scanner.

I have given you a general summary of the situation here. Yet you go into drill mode.

Thank you for regarding me as a person--and not just another fucker that comes in for support.

By the way, my view is that there are two kinds of humans: people and fuckers. It was obvious that I was in the fucker category here.

It may have been a long day--and fenris02 may have been under stress.. but well...

19:34 -!- amabo [~matsa@cpe-66-27-107-106.san.res.rr.com] has joined #fedora

19:35 < amabo> how might i go about installing gnome 3 with fedora 13?

19:35 < fenris02> amabo, su -c "yum install @gnome-desktop"

19:35 < amabo> fenris02: thanks!

19:35 < Anpan> So nobody can/wants to help me anymore?

19:36 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: there is an Epson entry

19:36 < fenris02> Anpan, your driver was not found in kmod-staging? you sure?

19:36 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: but it has only saw the printer part of it

19:36 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, ok, what is that line?

19:36 < Anpan> fenris02: well, the networkmanager doesn't show any signs of wlan being available

19:36 < KatrinaTheLamia> Bus 001 Device 014: ID 04b8:0854 Seiko Epson Corp. 

19:37 < fenris02> Anpan, did you install kmod-staging successfully?

19:37 < Anpan> fenris02: yum didn't return any errors, at least.

19:37 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, what is the full model name of teh device?

19:38 < KatrinaTheLamia> Epson Workforce 310

19:38 -!- Vorbote [~vorbote@unaffiliated/vorbote] has joined #fedora

19:38 -!- tmclaugh [~tom@c-65-96-209-125.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]

19:39 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: my scanner appears to have been in the Epson2 backend since about version 1.0.12

19:39 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, are you sure?  it does not show up on the list ...

19:40 -!- cpg is now known as cpg|away

Right--you know the situation better than me... but uh... did you know about? They suck at updating this list.

19:40 -!- cpg is now known as cpg|away

19:40 < KatrinaTheLamia> I will grab you the vender id and stuff... look for it that way

19:40 < cpuobsessed> amabo: gnome 3 isn't out yet, you can install what they are calling a preview: gnome-shell

19:40 < KatrinaTheLamia> those lists are horribly unmaintained it seems

19:40 < amabo> cpuobsessed: do i have to recompile a kernal or anything like that?

19:40 < fenris02> you already provided the vendor id above.

Yeah--I know.. but... that output was only vaguely verbose. I mean, generally I am not for tool reports containing what appears to be two Ambigiously labelled number BUS and ID, followed by two seeming arbitrary numbers.

I mean, yes, it is obvious now--but it generally gets annoying when people put output on a console or into a long that is largely a lot of meaningless numbers and vague terms.

Yes, that is wonderful for internal stuffs. Go crazy with internals.

If the program is spitting out diagnostic info... well... lets compare with `ifconfig wlan0`

wlan0     Link encap:Ethernet  HWaddr 00:XX:XX:XX:XX:XX  

          inet addr:10.0.5.26  Bcast:10.0.5.255  Mask:255.255.255.0

          inet6 addr: fe80::224:2cff:fe98:97ed/64 Scope:Link

          UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST  MTU:1500  Metric:1

          RX packets:44374643 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0

          TX packets:24944142 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0

          collisions:0 txqueuelen:1000 

          RX bytes:3470024625 (3.2 GiB)  TX bytes:3987538479 (3.7 GiB)

That is a lot better than the output of lsusb.

While, yes, that does require some network knowledge it is generally a lot easier to make heads or tails of than of what lsusb says.

Oh, right--this was where fenris02 decided I was insulting him--no, I am mostly just irritated, and venting a little.

I also want a problem solved... and my main instinct when a problem steps on me, so to bite it until it  is solved.

19:40 < KatrinaTheLamia> found USB scanner (vendor=0x04b8, product=0x0854) at libusb:001:014

19:40 < KatrinaTheLamia> plug those two hex values into sanes search option.

19:41 -!- chia [~chia@117.254.215.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]

19:41 < KatrinaTheLamia> It has been included since the four patch level of 1.0.12

19:41 < KatrinaTheLamia> though... it seems to have listed it as since "1.0.124"... I am mostly going to blame an accident with the version system

19:42 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, sane-find-scanner reports what?

19:42 < cpuobsessed> amabo: for gnome-shell? no; it's a part of desktop-effects

19:42 < cpuobsessed> yum install gnome-shell

19:42 -!- GungaDin [~yaron.hir@203.175.120.250] has joined #fedora

19:42 < KatrinaTheLamia> right... I will paste a more full form

19:42 < KatrinaTheLamia> [sanei_usb] sanei_usb_open: can't find device `/dev/usbscanner14' in list

19:42 < KatrinaTheLamia> [sanei_usb] sanei_usb_open: can't find device `/dev/usbscanner15' in list

19:42 < KatrinaTheLamia> found USB scanner (vendor=0x04b8, product=0x0854) at libusb:001:014 # Your USB scanner was (probably) detected. It may or may not be supported by # SANE. Try scanimage -L and read the backend's manpage.

19:43 < KatrinaTheLamia> those cannot find device exists for... well... over nine thansand lines above that.

19:43 < KatrinaTheLamia> if you want I can redirect STDERR and put that into pastebin

19:43 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, please use fpaste.org or dpaste.com for that.

19:43 < fenris02> much easier to follow that way.

Right-- fenris02... see... this was where I already doubted you ever cared to follow me. I just entered into you channel. Another fucker--but an angry noisy fucker.

Completely ignore the fact I pointed out everything above that is the same error message over and over again.

Completely ignore that the vendor id I gave earlier was from the command you asked for, and yet you asked for it again.

Completely ignore that there was only five lines of paste--five lines of paste that contains all you really need to know the issue here.

19:44 -!- Dephenom [~Paul@office.getresolved.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]

19:44 < KatrinaTheLamia> in this case, it was only five lines... and most of the redundant crap was removed.

19:44 -!- ciupicri [~ciupicri@81.180.234.249] has quit [Quit: Leaving]

19:44 -!- kc8hfi [~kc8hfi@173.80.112.52] has joined #fedora

19:44 -!- severnaya [~severnaya@unaffiliated/severnaya] has joined #fedora

19:44 < KatrinaTheLamia> the important part are all the lines, fenris02, I would think, that it cannot find a device to talk to the scanner

19:44 -!- severnaya [~severnaya@unaffiliated/severnaya] has left #fedora []

19:45 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, and did you try 'scanimage -L' as suggested?

19:45 -!- DiscordianUK [~ch@fedora/DiscordianUK] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]

19:45 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: no... no I doid... OF COURSE I DID...

19:45  * KatrinaTheLamia does that again

19:46 < spoleeba> fenris02, udev rules issue>

19:46 < spoleeba> fenris02, ?

19:46 -!- daMaestro [~jon@fedora/damaestro] has joined #fedora

19:46 < fenris02> spoleeba, possibly.  i cant get the facts to find out

I gave you the facts you need, right at the beginning of this discussion.

This here is mostly for you to do an exercise in you ability to masturbate your passive aggressive prowelness.

You are not really showing any interest in the situation. The only reason you care is because I am coming here loudly. Chances are--the other result would be me pasting my question over and over again--with well... what happened last time.

I got told to head over to #sane... who kept directing me to #fedora.

When I get that from various phone lines, it usually means that I am phoning Canadian Government Workers--usually heavily incompetent ones.

My confidence in your solution is gone.

You got your data you need.

Please, just listen.

19:46 < fenris02> spoleeba, you are welcome to try instead

19:47 < spoleeba> fenris02, if i had any usb scanner to poke at...i would

19:47 -!- CapnKernel [~mjd@ppp59-167-188-93.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]

19:47 < kc8hfi> i copied my old .fdi file from f12 and trying to use it in f13 isn't working quite right.  did something change with the format or something?

19:48 < spoleeba> fenris02, i see the udev rule file..and the long list of scanners...and im just wondering...

Hey, fenris02... I cannot say this to your face--but the psycho yelling chick? I think she may have been correct here.

19:48 < fenris02> spoleeba, *nod*  it is certainly a good suspect.

19:48 -!- dcr226 [~dcr226@80.175.89.153] has joined #fedora

You ass kissed me well enough--good, you get to be correct.

19:49 < KatrinaTheLamia> Like I have been saying my issue from the start was.

19:50 < KatrinaTheLamia> Hence why maybe... just maybe, under the step in most howtos, for even the 2.6 kernel (which last I checked I WAS using... I can run uname -ar if you want), to run at least one line of modprobe.

Oh, hey, fenris02... I am just going to voice my opinion on how spoleeba just said I was right, on the information I gave at the start of this.

Rather than this run around you did here, when you regarded me as fucker and did the long ass "is it plugged in spiel"

19:50 < spoleeba> KatrinaTheLamia, pardon...but can you give me the vendor and device id again...i want to try to look iot up in the udev rules for sane scanners

19:50 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, i've told you before, and i will only repeat it this once more.  you are welcome to keep bashing away until you guess upon the solution, or ask and learn.  if you insist on being sarchatic and unfriendly, i'm free to go elsewhere.

Well, yes, you are--you however do not.

In this case, you just kick me, rather than part the channel.

Again more passive aggressive bullshit.

If you are going to kick somebody, flat out say, "I will kick you if you continue."... please do not do this "I am the good guy. I am helping"--when all you are doing is nothing.

19:50 < fenris02> spoleeba,   found USB scanner (vendor=0x04b8, product=0x0854) at libusb:001:014

19:51 -!- Skaperen [~phil@c-76-125-202-149.hsd1.wv.comcast.net] has joined #fedora

Okay--here he was actually helpful... it kind of required ass kissing though.

19:51 < spoleeba> fenris02, its in udev

19:51 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: right... perhaps you should ask... perhaps... perhaps maybe I did your way... about ooh--three weeks ago... in fact, I think this line of stuff did not work... I was then bounced over to sane

19:51 < spoleeba> fenris02, ATTRS{idVendor}=="04b8", ATTRS{idProduct}=="0854", ENV{libsane_matched}="yes"

19:51 < fenris02> spoleeba, yep.  here too.

19:51 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: I am just a little bit frustrated, as previous experience shows that following these steps does not work.

Translation: I am sorry. I should not have used this channel to vent. You are starting to help me--so I will start to calm down.

19:51 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, ok.  someone else can help you then.  good luck.

Translation from Passive Aggressive to English: see, you are wrong. Your scanner works completely fine. This problem requires no more attention from any of us. Never mind that the only person who actually have attention to the situation was spoleeba.

Translation con't: I mean--I also did a large amount of going through the motion, so I looked helpful. So it is all good.

Oh--hey fenris02... guess what would have ended this situation here?

Just simply asking, is it in your udev file, Katrina? Here is the location, paste it onto a pastebin.

I mean, it is not like Katrina was the first to suggest using some paste bin, but risked pasting something that was only five lines--followed by me saying the rest is redundant and that I can paste the full STDERR output onto a pastebin.

19:51 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: you ARE aware of the definition of insanity then

For those of you unaware:

The definition of insanity is trying the exact same stuff over and over again--and magically expecting some different result without any reason for it to be prompted.

I figured that was somewhat more tactful that what it translates out to:

Translation: FUCK YOU! I have done those steps several times. I'd sooner try to use the Goggles.

19:52 < pixinvent> I LOVE FEDORA

19:52 -!- goldfish [~goldfish@co1fw01-02-e-0-0-v315-gw.tradefair.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]

19:52 < pixinvent> I'm just saying.

19:52 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: yeah... and somehow, I doubt that would be help ful either... wait... I KNOW! IS MY BLOODY COMPUTER TURNED ON >.>'

19:52 -!- sindrepb [~sindrepb@c1E6F47C1.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #fedora

19:52 -!- cobra-the-joker [~cobra@41.131.85.14] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]

19:52 -!- StrikerTTD [~Striker@184.76.215.27] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]

19:52 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, correct your attitude or go elsewhere.  NOW.

You clearly are not kissing my ass enough.

19:52 < KatrinaTheLamia> pixinvent: actually I love it too... just... the error I am having is very unexpected.. and it is frustrating as it seems that there is no solution

19:52 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: okay-I will still myself.

BTW: am I the only one that thinks my next two lines are to the effect of attempting to disarm the situation.

However, the ire of fenris02 has been risen. The person asking for help, did not play his games, did not kiss his ass, and pointed out his exact behaviours.

The only thing that will come next is being dunked into a pool full of Hungry Sharks with Frikkin Laser Beams on Their Foreheads.

19:53 < Skaperen> last time I tried to use Fedora ... which was a while back (Fedora 9 I think) ... I could not figure this out ... but I'm going to try to set up a machine with Fedora 13 tomorrow ... what I want to do ahead of time is get a list of all packages I could choose to install (and browse through them and make choices ahead of time)

19:53 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: that was not attitude... it was mostly just veniting. Not aimed at anybody in particular.

19:53 < Anpan> pixinvent: i loved it too... until today

19:53 < fenris02> Skaperen, the install guide is an excellent place to start

19:53 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: mostly to just let off some steam.

BTW--I have a funny idea.. or theory on how to be much more happy.

I generally ignore people letting of steam in these.

If somebody is swearing and getting rather sarcastic, I merely take it as symptoms that maybe they are human, and frustrated. A gentle hand is a best touch--rather than telling them that if they do not start kissing my ass, and playing my games, their problem will never be solved.

I have seen people that frustrated in channels I have been able to help in.

Noting that I seem to be using some dialect of English here, likely EN-GB, maybe EN-CA--it is fairly obvious that I show some intelligence. I also flat out told him how I felt the situation was occurring here. To his face. I apologised once, and mentioned that I would try to calm down. However, it was typically answered with passive aggressive nonsense--and only going through the motions of help. With no real interest in doing so.

19:53 < Skaperen> fenris02: I believe that is what I did last time ... have they added a list of packages now?

19:53 < pixinvent> If you have a hard time setting up fedora just do the live CD. It's easy Ubuntu style.

19:53 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, keep it up and i will also let off some steam ... in your direction.  Now, behave.

19:53 -!- rigeld2 [~Rob@ab1-4-160.shsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]

19:54 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: why do you think I am flaming people?

19:54 < fenris02> Skaperen, what is it you're looking for specifically?

19:54 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: because I am not

Spoiler: If you are not fluent with Passive Aggressiveness, he was generally flaming me a lot more.

I was merely reacting in an honest way. Generally considering his way, less than honest, and generally very irritating, frustrating and not worth my time to deal with.

19:54 -!- mck182 [~quassel@93.91.241.53] has joined #fedora

19:54 < Anpan> pixinvent: i doubt that would fix my problem with missing wlan and the keyboard that doesn't work

19:54 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: have I insulted anybody since I got in here?

19:54 -!- papillon-butineu is now known as alphad

19:54 < pixinvent> The Fedora 13 DVD lets you specify the packages. It's awesome. I love the minimal install.

19:54 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: if anything, you have been more insulting to me.

19:54 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: now lets move on.

Why do I feel like I am repeating myself here?

Ohh... lets see..

19:32 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: okay... how do I do this?

[...]

19:43 < KatrinaTheLamia> those cannot find device exists for... well... over nine thansand lines above that.

19:43 < KatrinaTheLamia> if you want I can redirect STDERR and put that into pastebin

[...]

19:45 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: no... no I doid... OF COURSE I DID...

19:45  * KatrinaTheLamia does that again

[...]

19:51 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: right... perhaps you should ask... perhaps... perhaps maybe I did your way... about ooh--three weeks ago... in fact, I think this line of stuff did not work... I was then bounced over to sane

[...]

19:51 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: I am just a little bit frustrated, as previous experience shows that following these steps does not work.

[...]

19:52 < KatrinaTheLamia> pixinvent: actually I love it too... just... the error I am having is very unexpected.. and it is frustrating as it seems that there is no solution

19:52 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: okay-I will still myself.

[...]

19:53 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: that was not attitude... it was mostly just veniting. Not aimed at anybody in particular.

Translation: I am sorry that you took offense. This was not aimed at you. Please stop acting like I am punching your mom in the stomach repetitive while I force her to watch me shove a pineapple up your Dad's rear end.

[...]

19:54 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: why do you think I am flaming people?

19:54 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: because I am not

Translation: you seem awfully pissing about what I am saying here. Nobody else has complained. Heck, if you had just shut up, and quit acting like you had something that only resembles a slightly larger than average lack of desire to help, some of the others would have jumped in.

No, I insulted Fedora... as... it did not work perfectly out the box... you'd think I defecated on your grandma's grave and used the flowers as tissue.

It is an OS--it is normal for something to not work. I am a human (I think), it is normal for me to be frustrated at a situation. It is also normal for when I gave a full summary on the situation, even gave you all the useless data you needed to stroke that ego of yours that you may have been helping--you still maintain I do the steps I did again, that did not work.

Also, if you had perhaps asked for a past of my udev file, as, you know what? It may have been incomplete. There are countless things that could get in the way here. I appologise to the audience (yes all i3 of you) for speaking the tongue fenris02 was using here. The translation is: probably one or two typical things that can be shrugged off, and worked to fix the situation more fully.

[...]

19:54 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: have I insulted anybody since I got in here?

19:54 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: if anything, you have been more insulting to me.

19:54 < KatrinaTheLamia> fenris02: now lets move on.

Right... Citation needed obviously:

19:32 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, ok, you do whatever you feel is best. when you want it working let me know

[...]

19:40 < KatrinaTheLamia> found USB scanner (vendor=0x04b8, product=0x0854) at libusb:001:014

19:42 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, sane-find-scanner reports what?

19:42 < KatrinaTheLamia> found USB scanner (vendor=0x04b8, product=0x0854) at libusb:001:014 # Your USB scanner was (probably) detected. It may or may not be supported by # SANE. Try scanimage -L and read the backend's manpage.

[...]

19:43 < KatrinaTheLamia> those cannot find device exists for... well... over nine thansand lines above that.

19:43 < KatrinaTheLamia> if you want I can redirect STDERR and put that into pastebin

19:43 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, please use fpaste.org or dpaste.com for that.

19:43 < fenris02> much easier to follow that way.

19:44 < KatrinaTheLamia> in this case, it was only five lines... and most of the redundant crap was removed.

Translation:

Katrina: I pretty much took two lines of the exact same errors over and over again, and put them after the final output line.

Fenris02: Please, this is my world. We need to follow my rules, whether or not they apply here.

Fenris02: With your large paste, I have issues following its intrinsic structure

Katrina: You... cannot follow five lines?

[...]

19:46 < spoleeba> fenris02, udev rules issue>

19:46 < spoleeba> fenris02, ?

19:46 < fenris02> spoleeba, possibly.  i cant get the facts to find out

Katrina Aside: You are a pretty sharp fellow aren't you. I mean, not somebody that any details get past. No wonder all of my fedora issues have not been due to small quirks or glitches that paying a little attention would fix

[...]

19:50 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, i've told you before, and i will only repeat it this once more.  you are welcome to keep bashing away until you guess upon the solution, or ask and learn.  if you insist on being sarchatic and unfriendly, i'm free to go elsewhere.

[...]

19:51 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, ok.  someone else can help you then.  good luck.

[...]

19:52 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, correct your attitude or go elsewhere.  NOW.

[...]

19:53 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, keep it up and i will also let off some steam ... in your direction.  Now, behave.

-=-

Okay, yes, I did fire stuff off at him. And you know what the correct thing would be here? To have helped the others-- and let that spleeba fellow help.

19:54 < fenris02> KatrinaTheLamia, you are also disrupting everyone else that wants assistance.

Oh, hey, citation needed here:

19:35 < amabo> how might i go about installing gnome 3 with fedora 13?

19:35 < fenris02> amabo, su -c "yum install @gnome-desktop"

9:40 < cpuobsessed> amabo: gnome 3 isn't out yet, you can install what they are calling a preview: gnome-shell

19:40 < amabo> cpuobsessed: do i have to recompile a kernal or anything like that?

19:42 < cpuobsessed> amabo: for gnome-shell? no; it's a part of desktop-effects

19:42 < cpuobsessed> yum install gnome-shell

Summary: somebody wanting to preview software already out.

Status: Solved

[...]

19:30  * Anpan starts to despair

19:31 < Anpan> if things stay like this, i have to go back to windows. And thats what i totally want to avoid.

19:35 < Anpan> So nobody can/wants to help me anymore?

19:36 < fenris02> Anpan, your driver was not found in kmod-staging? you sure?

19:36 < Anpan> fenris02: well, the networkmanager doesn't show any signs of wlan being available

19:37 < fenris02> Anpan, did you install kmod-staging successfully?

19:37 < Anpan> fenris02: yum didn't return any errors, at least.

Summary: Somebody whining. It is attempting to look like asking for help.

Status: undetermined. I got kicked before we could see if she got it online. Her reply may have been delayed due to network shifts.

Help Process: Same status quo, reading from the long list of check list that from the looks of it, Anpan already tried--and did not work.

Chances help would work: little to none.

Likely unless she has a physical agent next to her to allow somebody near by to help her out, she is going back to windows in about six months.

From the looks of it, she will be another user saying Linux is too complicated.

The online help is fine here--but this is the sort of thing somebody physical nearby (that is, somebody real) would be best.

[...]

19:47 < kc8hfi> i copied my old .fdi file from f12 and trying to use it in f13 isn't working quite right.  did something change with the format or something?

Summary: vague summary of a floppy disk image from Fedora 12... tried to use it in Fedora 13.

Status: ignored

Chances to get helped:

Used the .fdi file extension to shorten the fact that I am guessing he used a F12 bootdisk for launching the installer CD. And tried it again for Fedora 13.

This is probably going to through them all through a loop. Chances are they will ask why not boot off of the CD ROM instead of the floppy. Chances are two replies will be made

1) Hardware issues

Likely response) time for an upgrade

2) desire for a network install

Likely response) ignoring them for a more "real" issue.

Proper solution:

• Confirm he is talking talking about a Floppy Image. There may have been an error with guest OSes and is guest OS of Amiga may have been screwed in the upgrade. He may also be using a library to run Amiga programs natively. An upgrade of this level, likely would upgrade this software enough that it may cause issues.
• Reply that the new floppy probably knows to target the newer sections of the CD orDVD media--as well a a better idea of how to grab Fedora 13 as a network install.

[...]

19:53 < Skaperen> last time I tried to use Fedora ... which was a while back (Fedora 9 I think) ... I could not figure this out ... but I'm going to try to set up a machine with Fedora 13 tomorrow ... what I want to do ahead of time is get a list of all packages I could choose to install (and browse through them and make choices ahead of time)

19:53 < fenris02> Skaperen, the install guide is an excellent place to start

19:53 < Skaperen> fenris02: I believe that is what I did last time ... have they added a list of packages now?

19:54 < fenris02> Skaperen, what is it you're looking for specifically?

19:54 < pixinvent> The Fedora 13 DVD lets you specify the packages. It's awesome. I love the minimal install.

Summary: Skaperen trying to install Fedora, like it is Debian or a BSD.

Status: Solved

-=-

19:52 < pixinvent> I LOVE FEDORA

19:52 < pixinvent> I'm just saying.

19:53 < pixinvent> If you have a hard time setting up fedora just do the live CD. It's easy Ubuntu style.

19:54 < Anpan> pixinvent: i doubt that would fix my problem with missing wlan and the keyboard that doesn't work

Summary: Attention Whoring.

Status: Ignored. pixinvent is not ass kissing quite right

Chances to be helped:

Why? I kind of agree with him.

-=-

And thus at the end:

19:54 -!- CARAM [~C@ip72-211-238-98.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #fedora

19:54 < Skaperen> fenris02: a list of packages

19:54 -!- mode/#fedora [+b *!~root13@li130-87.members.linode.com] by fedbot

19:54 -!- KatrinaTheLamia was kicked from #fedora by fedbot [time out]

--- Log closed Wed May 26 19:54:53 2010

So the horrible issue of I got banned from a channel of unhelpful people on the internet.

My response: I bitch about it on a blog that nobody reads or cares about. I mean, most blogs at least have +5 people... I have i5... that is instead of positive five people, or negative five people, I have an imaginary number of viewers.

I think my response is justified.

How to call somebody a god in a very insulting manner.

Oh, hey, want to refer to somebody as a very enlightened person, with all evidence pointing to yes, this person is in fact the enlightened Kung Foo master and all? Yet, still have everybody around you, see this as you completely tearing a strip off this person, while calling him highly enlightened?

Here is one way:

*blinks* well between the complete English fail here on presenting what you mean, this discussion was pretty much over already.

I mean, while I understand that this has been discussed to death (hence why I kind of dropped it in a form of agreement)... you DO realise that you said, "the talk page is to talk about X. Not to talk about X." to most people? I mean, unless you mean, that we are only to talk about the spelling, grammar and literary value of the article, I cannot have any clue as to what you just suggested as the policy in place here.

I mean, unless we go uber-meta, how can you talk about the article without talking of the context that the article is in, that is, the article's subject.

To bring up a summary, you just jumped into a discussion that ended, and said a confusing statement that talking about your article is a rather schroedinger's status here. As in the Talk we can both talk about the article and not talk about the article. Darklord, do you perchance have dog qualities? And if so, could you regale what the sound of one handed clapping is? --KatrinaTheLamia 19:49, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

See! I just called a site admin a rather enlightened Buddha type figure... and... I got banned for it.

As here, I pointed to a policy in question that was confusing as a form of enlightened Koan of sorts. That is, something along the line of "I am Buddha. I am not Buddha.". In this case, "You may not used the Article Talk page. You may use the Article Talk Page."

To clear this up further (brown is such a clear state of mud, you know?), I tried to support that it was a Buddhist Koan type reference here, by referring to a specific (an near lunatic status) school of Buddhism, that asks if dogs have Buddha qualities.

Essentially, I just told somebody that

A) His policy does not make any sense.
B) Opened a line of question to explain it.
C) Called him an enlightened admin
and
D) The admin felt rather insulted in the process

I mean, yes, I was rather impatient with him--but looking at previous articles, I am usually on edge in various communities dealing with Wikis. As typically, the admins of these places, are the exact sort that use to admin /M[UO].*/ of yesteryear. Typically as it is the only way they can get a power trip. It is, in short an outlet on life, where they still have some power.

Mind you, I do not hate them for it--no, this is merely a symptom of another worse situation. As the solution SHOULD be, looking into why they have gotten to the point, that the only place they think they have power is online. That should be what is disliked--not the power tripping admin.

Also, further more, it was cleared up, after I was blocked, that the talk page is for pointing out typos and broken links. Only confirming what I had long since suspected: complete and total misuse of MediaWiki software on a news portal.

As the whole point of having a software that anybody can edit, is that, well, anybody can edit it. And removing that "anybody can edit" by having them required to go through several steps of well--redundant department or redundancy stuff--to edit it for valid reasons to just do it (typos and bad links)...

Well--this is why I really hate wikis. The software and product itself is manageable, however, this is another Internets that I hate on the grounds of, "DAMN SCOTS! THEY RUINED SCOTLAND!"

This goes along with sprite Comics, Fan Fiction, Vampyr Communities, FPS, MMORPGs, Flash and PHP--that I really am leery about entering. As the concept of these communities really is not bad in and of themselves--it is the idiots using the concepts that I hate.

No! I Will NOT set up a Wiki!

You know what, Internets? You had your chance at something good? You really did. The concept of setting up a Wiki could have been a wonderful golden opportunity. Let us go how you guys screwed up.

First off... MediaWiki. which has been made the defacto software and layout design... is an abhorrent web design. Look on any Media Wiki page set up. Ask yourself, where is that damned carrot? Where do you click to get what you want? Typically, most Wiki layouts based on MediaWiki have way too many garbage links that 90% of the audience viewing the website is never going to click. Nor are they ever going to care that these functionalities exist.

How about this? You have the search at the top of the page. A few important links att the top, or in the side bar... then, get this... the article itself. Kind of silly. Oh! And then, all those other links that exist for maintainer purposes? That pretty much only the admins and editors should care about? Oh--this will be really killed... put those as Footer Links. Hilarious that people would think that a simplified design, ala Apple or Google would be a good idea for laying out content.

Okay, next, we have this layout, that does not make me want to punch babies more than I normally want to do (what? Some girls eat ice cream when upset, I punch babies. And just like some girls do not need to be upset to eat ice cream...).

What else has screwed up? Well--typically that bloody retarded Wiki Markup. Look, myself, I have gone through the effort to learn DTD, XQuery, XPath, DOM2, DOM3, XBI2, XUL, xhtml2, xhtml11, HTML401, HTML5, CSS2, CSS3, Postscript, POD and countless other ways to describe a page's copy and the layout of said copy. While it is always nice to know basic Wiki markup give a bloody dammed WYSIWYG editor for wiki editing! I mean, Google Sites, Blogger, Wordpress, Tumblr, and countless millions of other pieces of web software provide WYSIWYG editing for adding entries. Why the hell is it that most wikis are so bleeding far behind on providing this.

I am a person, who will bust out Vim, and hardcode a website, just to get its layout right. However, if I am working with the copy of said website--that is the content, I have gotten to the point that I really do not care if I am using a WYSIWYG editor... in fact... I kind of prefer it. And you know what? This lack of desire to learn 9001 different markups to present a page's content (including several dialects of Wiki that only vaguely work with each other, BBCode with several dialecs of that, Basic-HTML, HTML401, HTML5, xhtml11, xhtml5, SVG, etc., etc., etc..) is the main reason you still find people with copies of Microsoft Frontpage. A product that gets people working at Microsoft itself want to commit Hari Kari over the fact they made it. This is part of why Microsoft is considering relocating to the British Ilse--the ban on knifes there, will pretty much remove employee loss due to these reasons.

I mean, okay, I agree, that there have been some dastardly horrid WYSI(not)WYG products out there. The thing is, you are NOT presenting a website to make Van Gogh able to stop haunting the hills of Northern California and rest in peace as a forever happy soul. You are presenting out the copy, that is content, to give that website designed to allow Van Gogh to rest in peace a reason to be visited. Which since most of what you will be posting is links, bold, italics, headlines and images, there really is not that much cause NOT to have a WYSIWYG editor of sorts.

Okay--so we get onto why Wikis are so nice. The communities that use them.

You know, you should possibly make arguments that are at least convincing in how they sound.

You get three people who make use of wikis: spam bots, power hungry admins and people who just complain.

Spam bots will just go into a wiki, and submit a random article (or article edit), with links to some other site, that they are trying to lower the ranking of in Google. As comment spam, is a form of vandalism, not meant to sell any thing.

Next you get people who complain. These people will take the time out of their life to post templates saying that this article has a fair amount of spelling or style issues. OR they will go to the diccussion section, and say, "this needs to be fixed to this." This is usually followed by several others also agreeing in the discussion section. As they seem to know HOW to comment it needs to be fixed, and they know HOW to mark an article for deletion... but they are completely puzzle at how to edit that section AND BLOODY FIX IT THEMSELVES LIKE YOU ARE SUPPOSE TO BE ABLE TO DO ON A WIKI!

Was not that the bloody number 1 selling point on a Wiki? That if something is wrong, you can go in and fix it your bloody self?! How is it that nobody ever does this?

Oh right--the power tripping admins. These, from what I have seen, are pretty much just the newer version of the power tripping MUD,MUCK.MOO,MOSH,MUSH,etc. admins of yesteryear. Either their dick is too small to do this crap in real life, so they do it from behind a computer screen.

Even better is now, you do not even have to know the subject matter at hand to be an Admin or Staff of a Wiki. Wikipedia themselves are known to be the bloody worse for hiring staff or admins that are not even barely qualified for the sections they are involved in.

I mean--okay... it is nice and wonderful that we have these totalitarian Admins of these sites--but you'd kind of hope they would know their crap.

At this point, any of the functionality of the selling points of the Wikis are gone. You may as well just have the Admins put up their own blogger entry, where they rant and rave about crap nobody likely cares about. With people to comment on changes.

The only difference is the Admins would have to at least offer some content of their own. Rather than just have random strangers get put into their weird and amalgamated mixture of wiki facts.

Yeah--I did just put this blog as better than Wikipedia. And no, that is not a compliment for this blog.

Personally, whenever somebody says that Wikipedia has been shown to be 90% accurate (and more accurate than Encyclopedia Britannica), I kind of have to ask, what body is in charge of measuring this, and why they have not bothered to put out their own encyclopedia that is 100%?

Further saying that this is the internet. Facts do not exist in any form. At most we can get is commonly agreed upon heresy and opinion.

A website is the opinions of its authors. This should be assumed by logging onto the internet.

Tonight, the Libraries of NIMH shall be constructed!

Well, I am certain at least one person apart from me knows about my project that is known as libNIMH. It has been something on my block for some time.

A brief description of what it is, would be all the base functionality of a typical modern program being put into a single set of libraries so as to not require me to have to constantly write what I am doing here.

• Socket handlers
• Threading abilities
• Dynamic Load (DL) plugin functionality
• Heap handling
• Stack
• Storage abilities
• State storing/autosave
• Configuration, via command line and save file with the ability to commit save information
• Embedded scripting abilities (via Lua5, Ruby, Spidermonkey, v8, Perl5, Python2, Parrot, SMsSys, Mono and JVM)
• Secure Socket Layers (socket encryption as the default)

These days, I am finding I am doing a lot of my programs have sockets, threading, storage, configuration options and some scripting. I am adding Heap/Stack and dynamic loading options as these are generally very decent things to add. Dynamic Loading will generally work for what I want to do, which is allow for modules to be loaded and unload on the fly, without starting or stopping the programs. To slim down memory usage of a program, or add functionality needed (and perhaps unload the module if hard drive lag does not offset RAM conditions).

You will note that for the embedded scripting there is a large amount of options present. Though, these would be loaded and unloaded entirely via the DL section of libNIMH. So to try to remove some bloat.

I will be calling each program using libNIMH that is currently open a "book". Programs are the software using libNIMH--but each running process using libNIMH will be a book.

I am also debating on some form of signal system for libNIMH type programs. The issue is that libNIMH likely will not have a set port open to it, and the system will likely have several libNIMH books open at once. I could have a main libNIMH scoreboard file with libNIMH signal ports listed in it. The communication ports will likely be whatever random ports that those particular libNIMH books can acquire above 1024.

I am looking at figuring out the protocol used for interprocess communications along ::1 (aka 127.0.0.1) to use UDP. Trying to keep the confirmation speed going quick enough that interception should be hard to set up. On comparison to an encrypted communication on ::1, which if you can intercept UDP going to ::1 on a system, you can easily man in the middle an SSL connection on ::1.

Out side processes can ask what libNIMH ports are open, allowing a single port to be given out, to allow easier knowledge of what is on a system to be given out. As an alternative to being port scanned (though port scans would still likely occur).

Comment Spam's Real Purpose

I have an old blog. I do not think it is even public viewer able anymore. I mean I do not give the link to the domain it is on anymore. Then once you get into there, it is a directory listing. After navigating this listing to find the directory with the working version of the blog, there is a blog, with no major comments appearing on the first page.

To get to comments, you need to click a page or post.

Now, this old blog has not been updated since April 2007. Yes, I still get comments showing up in my moderation queue.

Roughly around Novembre 2009, I started clicking on a few links. The thing is, the links that they are heading to do not match the description.

Even more so, they tend to be also for dying or near dying projects. Sites that still need care to them. Usually these sites were for some fairly decent ideas and projects. Very rarely were they or scams or porn.

Then it hit me.

Comment spam exists only to lower a site's ranking in Google. There is nothing trying to be sold. Only vandalism of another company's service.

I kind of got suspicious when all the links were leading to other forum posts and other comments and not an actual site. Usually these rings of comments do not actually go to the stuff that the spam advertises. They just go to more comment spam.

Then we get into the issues that spam bots seem to prefer to target dead or dying websites. What is even worse, there is some idea in my head, that the more novel an idea, despite any issues they have in getting it forward, and the more that project is struggling, the more comment spam it starts to gain the attention from.

I then had a rather nice idea. This network of spam comments could be used against the companies trying to rank down that site's ranking in Google.

This would be done via plugin into a system that handles user interaction. Generally working via a post approval system. Possibly with a post tidying and reporting system on some really busy websites.

Once something has the spam target, it then is sent to the spam spider. The spam spider, will then go through the links on the site. Identifying what sites the comment spam links to, iding whether that site exists in the spam spider database already. With another "comment spam count" on it as well.

If it does not exist in the spam spider database, we wait until a threshold hits a certain amount of spam counts. It is then sent to somebody to review the site. The site is not designated by the comment field. The spam spider tries to find the base URL, and attempts to gather any relevant information on the site, via meta tags, link tags, bold/strong text, header tags, title tag and via the Vernacular System I plan to put into Kid Norrin.

This summary is given to the person reviewing the site, who then rates the accuracy of the summary--so as to try to grade the system presented. Mostly keeping track of origin of this comment spam link, xhtml/html validity, use of flash, the vernacular of the comment link, the vernacular of the site or images on the site, location of the entry's server, and if the comment had a IP Address attached, the region of the IP address.

I hope that eventually tags could be placed onto these sort of summaries for content material. Then once reviewed, the spam spider reviewer would flag it for public viewing.

And, this my friends is why I need to eventually put my code where my mouth is X3

Adblocker Negator

 I have been thinking of a system designed to work around ad block.

Ad block typically works by searching for various URLs in the page, in script, img and a tags. If items in the URLs match the ad block requirements, then the ad is blocked.

I did consider the idea of simply going with a new work. Like "gooble" for an ad script, or directory. However, it would be fairly quick to add that into the standard blocks.

Naw, what would need to be done, is an ad script location that constantly changes. Constantly modifies itself. Perhaps is constantly randomly generated.

Now, mod_rewrite scripts are full able to take a randomised URL, and point it to a file. The randomised URL could be pointed to match various predicted profiles of a user. Based on IP Address region of the world, suggested ad material, and various other factors. Each of these dynamics attracted would have several random URLs attached to them.

Now, to get the URL, a form of mash up would probably be best. The server the ad is on, would likely use a RESTful API to grab the domain and URL to post to the client. This would generally allow the next bit.

Random domain names. While analysing my spam, I noticed a fair amount of bot generated domain names. Usually these are made up of gibberish letters followed by dotcom, with a gibberish path afterwards.

I kind of suspect that these URLs exist as a form of HASH for the spam sent. As well as the email it targeted. So as to predict and propagate better spam tactics. See which emails gain better responses, to concentrate on those more, for this profile being targeted.

In this case, rather than posting a single throw away site, it would instead have a nice ngine based proxy to point the content on the site to come from the main server. Making the original IP address of the ad network transparent.

Trust me--this should start appearing soon. I am kind of surprised it has not already.

I dunno--I kind of imagine that if I was running spam bots, the internet would be much more scary.

Rosebush and moving over from Posterous

Yeah--I am now REALLY liking how Blogger works and operates in comparison to Posterous.

Yes, Posterous did offer the convenience of being able to email entries. However, emailed entries tended to have a large amount of issues in formating and tagging. They also had to be monkeyed with to be posted to the other networks. That is, an item would need to be sent to twitter@harlot.posererous.com to get posted to Twitter. facebook@* for Facebook, etc.

I dunno--a few glitches could have been worked out. It also does not help that I never had any followers, nor did I really see anybody that I would want to follow. In comparison to twitter, tumblr and facebook. I dunno--it just kind of lonely.

Yes, there were a few regular people who would view my posts. I dunno--I rarely got more than 15 regular unique hits.

Add the void of Posterous and the general glitchiness of the functionality--I kind of tried out a few Blogger posts... and wow... I am in love with blogging again.

Now then--Rosebush. The item that will combine and replace my social networks. My goal to make NIMHLabs able to pull large amount of data from various social networks I am on, and put it in one place.

Rosebush will also make it easier to run the various items I desire to post onto my site. Typically these will be Source Books that I either have permission to post--or nobody really is going to question me on them, as the systems are not used for various reasons.

It will also contain a Pokedex, information on Rockman.EXE, The Mother Series--and a fair amount of data on various other games I am interested in.

Now before you suggest I go with a Wiki, I will say no. Even if I lock it down, Wiki's generally have formatting issues to them. Generally it makes it very hard to pull information from one item, and cross reference to another. Automatically posting information onto one Wiki page, for stats, generally does nothing to affects stats on another page.

Lets take TvTropes for example. A wonderful wiki. The issue is the tropes do not cross reference with the series. Posting a trope onto a series, does not put that series as an entry on the trope. Putting a series as an example on a trope, does not update that trope into the series.

This is a simple example, however this sort of thing tends to grow bigger and bigger on these sites. Making it worse by require manually adding data from one page to another.

That is why I do not want a Wiki for NIMHLabs.

There should be a few spots where user editable content may be present. Perhaps at some point. But NIMHLabs really should not run a Wiki.

It really does not help, that the main example of Wiki software people spooge over has some of the worst layout issues to its name. This being MediaWiki.

Open up a page in MediaWiki, using most of the layouts available. A fine layout, right? Okay--what do you click on the page? Is it in a decent spot?

My fixes would be:

• Search bar at the top and left
• Login information next to it
• Links to edit, view history, watch or discuss the page moved to a shorter side bar. Login links go there. As would the "random page" link.
• All those other links you see mucking up that layout? All those links that most people rarely, if ever use? All those links that generally add the idea of "what am I clicking on?"? They get moved to the footer of the page.
• The license this page is under is moved to an easier to see spot on the page. If it is a CC page, move that information from the bottom of the page, to possibly the upper right.

I mean, yes--this could be fixed with a simple skin. However, this is layout. We also have to deal with update propagation and another fun thing:

Most wiki's do not have a tagging system to them. I mean, yes, a template can be added that identifies other pages that should be looked at. This however is a little bit too much for this to really be the best plan.

Look at the Boorus. Gelbooru, e621, Paheal.Net--heck look at a site known as the Overbooru. What has made them some of the best picture gallery sites out there? I mean--copious amounts of porn is not it. I mean--there are other systems that people do not bother with that provide this as well.

Tagging. Each image is tagged by the viewers with any tag that may arouse interest in the depiction, no matter how tasteless or crude the image depicted is. These tags help people find everything faster.

This kind of is part of what I want Rosebush to have. Pages will be tagged, and then items in the page will be linked in a form of what would cause the Wikiwalk effect in anybody viewing the site.

This is generally increased, when I plan to add various written works to the site. Mostly in articles, howtos, stories and dreams I have had to the site. I also want to add a copy of ESR's Jargon File onto NIMH Labs. The Jargon File will likely be user edited.

The subject matter, I want to get with this site, is, well, mostly stuff on graphic design, programming and literature. Subject matter designed to allow you to more critically look at the world around you. Be able to look at advertisements, point out stop value, presentation of need and fulfillment of need show in the ad. To be able to point out how ads work. Literature would mostly be to help you understand how English works. Why and how various stories are written like they do and are. Programming as a means of learning how computers work and why. This would likely require a fair amount of history on this site too. Naturally the Legal System would also be a requirement of NIMH Labs to be covered.

However, while I am doing this, I would need to demonstrate that I do know stuff here. That I am not just another Foghorn Leghorn blabbing on at the mouth on something.

Which is why, I need to program a few things, draw a few comics and write a few stories as I am doing this.

Also, as I go though doing the literature--my plans are to have it annotated. That is, various items could be rolled over, and a little dialog would show above it, noting a few annotated elements on that item. Possibly, with a set of cliff notes presented from annotations, should this get user edited.

The issue is--well... the basis of the project, right now is Pylons. Though--it is generally a pain for me to work with here. I mean--if I were to try to code this from scratch I would have a clue as to how to do it. However the actual coding would "take longer than if I did it with Pylons" (if I really could figure out Pylons), and "would benchmark much slower than Pylons" (which I am likely to agree there).

The issue here is it is the same issue with RoR, Zope, and Catalyst.

I mean--these "simple" scaffolding systems have gotten to the point of impeding development for me. I mean, yes, I run a single command and most of the files I need to do this are automatically generated. However, the amount of editing I would need to do anyways kind of defeats any gain by the auto-gen. I mean, even then, what is generated is most of the time, only template files with nothing of interest in them anyways. May as well be done via scrap.

It also does not help that, to be frank, documentation sucks on RoR and Pylons. I mean, if there was more to read on how to do anything with it--rather than a few simple scripts on Pylon's site, with links to other sites, and me generally having no idea on how the developers were thinking of doing stuff when they put the stuff all together (it was "lightly" touched on in the Pylon's docs).

And even Pylon's ruefully lack of documentation is a lot better than RoR. Which did not have any documentation on it what so ever. You'd think with a language that brought about rdoc, people would be a lot more anal about commenting their work. Generally every rdoc generated library of documentation mostly consists of the modules and function names. Very rarely is the purpose, use, functionality of any of the entries explained. It relies on me thinking like the programmer was at the time of making the library, and grepping through source files given for how each function was implemented.

Trust me: when this is how people learn, you get a lot of people using your library VERY wrong. Usually getting bad programs, that while they do work, they are generally fundamentally wrong in how they were designed to operate. Incidentally, most of the libraries that propagate this ruby phenomenon further tend to be fundamentally wrong in how the use their libraries and work and operate.

Ruby could have been a much better language. Really it could have. That is, if people actually documented how to use what they build in it better. This, unfortunately, has caused much reinvention of the wheel in Ruby.

Catalyst I would use--however I am still having issues with cpan properly installing it on Dreamhost. Pylon only got used due to Python's ability to do "easy_install" to grab something from cheese shop, without whatever I am installing to screw up for some reason. Usually the fixes for these screw ups tend to be, "something is wrong with your cpan configuration. Fix it and then ask me again", "I dunno" and "oh, it should just install, if you type in the command"

I have complained in the past about cpan generally functioning horridly. I have tried it again--and well... if functions slightly better. Kind of like how a chimpanzee with a lobotomy does function better than a comatose patient with an IQ less than a tomato.

I will however, begin work on Jerl 6 soon. Provided that nobody who actually has competence has you know, done their job rather than wait for me to do something.

I dunno, projects I currently have on my slate for 2010:

• Rosebush & NIMH Labs
• KidRadd.Org
• Street Slifer
• SSBZ (this has been upgraded to being done by the end of 2010)
• libNIMH
• Kid Norrin
• Mofo Online
• P*DA ZX
• Geist
• Lamia Browser

*sigh*

It has been a real kick out of me being out of commission for the first three months of the year, due to hypothermia. Though, I am back on my feet, and kicking.

Here we go!